All about the legacy

I have been reading and watching reviews about Windows on ARM. The Surface Pro X and, most recently, the reviews of the new 5G ARM based Lenovo. The latter being on this site.

I think it’s fair to say there seem to be benefits of battery life and making laptops thinner for these devices. However, they all seem to stop at the legacy of Windows. Microsoft isn’t moving to ARM. More accurately it seems to be not moving from Intel to Qualcomm. ARM chips are an option in the roadmap. Microsoft have wasted a decade of trying to move Windows forward. Windows RT, Windows 10S, Windows 10 in S mode. All of which seem to have been curtailed by legacy. If Microsoft really is a cloud services company with no ecosystem for consumers it doesn’t really need a “modern Windows”. All it needs to do is supply apps for client computing and management tools to connect people to Microsoft subscription services. Windows for business, the legacy client, can chug along with incremental improvements and security updates. It really doesn’t need to move to ARM. No substantial Windows applications are being developed and the ones in maintenance are Intel based.

The removal of consumer services and the billions Microsoft makes from business means that other than collecting license fees from PC manufacturers nothing much needs doing.

I use Windows every day at work and it’s my preferred way of using PCs. However, I am a dinosaur. I saw Windows 1.0 being demoed and used DOS primary until Windows 3.x came out. Even then I used it inside OS/2 Warp. The last version of Windows should be Windows 10.

ARM hasn’t even got parity of esteem in the world of Microsoft. Windows for ARM doesn’t seem to have attracted developers. Hence the need for emulation. Developers are Azure developers, Office developers, PowerApps developers in the Microsoft world. Not Windows developers. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with Windows becoming a venerable old OS that businesses use to keep themselves in business. The default for PC buyers, now fewer in number, will be to get some version of Windows that most don’t even need because they use the web.

I think Microsoft should forget about Windows on ARM. Instead, if they want to create a new “lite” client OS it should be something else not called Windows and not supporting Win32. I really don’t see the point of supporting legacy in 2020. There is a legacy OS. It’s called Windows.

Conversation 17 comments

  • hrlngrv

    Premium Member
    26 July, 2020 - 6:02 pm

    <p>Perspective is everything. What you call <em>legacy</em> is the <strong>fundamental value</strong> of Windows.</p><p>No one uses Windows just to use the OS itself. I suppose there could be a few thousand people who use Edge, Wordpad and on rare occasions Calculator. Most PC users want to use 3rd party application software, and that's where there's a chicken-and-egg problem. Who wants to invest big in software built for ARM if there aren't many ARM-based PCs? Who wants to make ARM-based PCs if there isn't lots of native ARM software available for it?</p><p>Now a few serious questions. Does the world need another OS for laptops and desktop PCs which doesn't run Win32 software? More to the point, how long would it take such an OS from MSFT to reach the number of applications available for Linux?</p><p>Assuming MSFT doesn't intend just to reinvent the wheel of a desktop computing OS, what would be different in a new MSFT OS built for consumers running on ARM which couldn't run Win32 software?</p>

    • ponsaelius

      27 July, 2020 - 5:42 am

      <blockquote><em><a href="#557003">In reply to hrlngrv:</a></em></blockquote><p>I am not disputing that. The value of Windows is high in the business world. In the consumer world it is “meh” or “anything that gets me online is good enough”.</p><p><br></p><p>Business doesn’t need Windows on ARM and consumers don’t care.</p>

      • hrlngrv

        Premium Member
        27 July, 2020 - 9:23 pm

        <p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/forums/microsoft/microsoft/thread/all-about-the-legacy#557047&quot; target="_blank"><em>In reply to ponsaelius:</em></a></p><blockquote>“meh” or “anything that gets me online is good enough”</blockquote><p>Maybe age-related, but both my wife and I use some fairly old abandomware for particular hobbies. In my wife's case, a knitting pattern editor. In my case, a few old games, an ancient character mode word processor, and an ancient version of APL2. Those require Win32.</p><p>As for consumbers, many don't care, but then there's gamers. Are there any higher-end Windows games for Windows on ARM?</p>

    • anoldamigauser

      Premium Member
      27 July, 2020 - 11:17 am

      <blockquote><em><a href="#557003">In reply to hrlngrv:</a></em></blockquote><p>"<em>…people who use Edge, WordPad and on rare occasions Calculator.</em>"</p><p><br></p><p>Change WordPad to Notepad and I think you just described Mary Jo Foley.</p>

  • alsorun

    26 July, 2020 - 7:07 pm

    <p>It is not complicated. We need two versions of Windows. One is the traditional Win 10 that supports W32 apps. One is a web oriented Win X. Without the W32 version, many businesses cannot function. Without the web version, new type of laptop for simple tasks cannot be made.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p>

  • alsorun

    26 July, 2020 - 7:14 pm

    <p>In older days, applications can be written in Java and then run everywhere (although not very elegantly) for different operating systems and different CPUs. Since .Net is just a variation of Java, why cannot Microsoft use .Net to enable portability?</p>

    • hrlngrv

      Premium Member
      26 July, 2020 - 8:09 pm

      <p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/forums/microsoft/microsoft/thread/all-about-the-legacy#557007&quot; target="_blank"><em>In reply to alsorun:</em></a></p><p>Just recompile and relink for ARM?</p><p>That assumes there are no hardware-specific performance tweaks in the code.</p>

      • alsorun

        26 July, 2020 - 11:00 pm

        <p><br></p><blockquote>Java compiler compiles source code to platform independent byte code. Java runtime translates byte code to machine code when the code is run. So all the Java applications are ported once Java runtime is ported to a new platform.</blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote><a href="#557011"><em>In reply to hrlngrv:</em></a></blockquote><p><br></p>

    • wright_is

      Premium Member
      27 July, 2020 - 3:25 am

      <blockquote><em><a href="#557007">In reply to alsorun:</a></em></blockquote><p>They have, multiple times. The problem is getting software companies to re-write their software to use the new technologies.</p><p>If you have an existing piece of software that is generating revenue, why "kill" it and spend 2 – 3 years of no revenue re-writing it using a new language, if you don't have to?</p><p>Edit: to add that our ERP supplier is doing just that. They wrote their original software in the early 1980s for UNIX big iron and converted it to run on Windows Server under POSIX at the turn of the century. It still crawls along today and is still supported, but they finally bit the bullet and are putting that 1980s COBOL and Btrieve database out to pasture and are rewriting the whole thing from scratch, using Java and SQL Server. The new system currently has around 70% of the functionality, is slower and "harder" to use, but it is actually more user friendly and much faster for data analysis and it is more stable.</p><p>(It is harder to use, because the new system splits the information into more panels (tabs) than the old system, so you can't as quickly and easily tab through the forms. An experienced user on the old system can add a new order to the system in a few seconds, just using the keyboard. Doing the same thing on the new system takes longer, needs them to jump through a couple of extra tabs and they have to use the mouse at certain points.)</p>

  • wright_is

    Premium Member
    27 July, 2020 - 3:23 am

    <p>The problem is, most business software is Windows only and not even Windows 10 software. In fact, I'd say around 2/3 of our software is Windows XP or Windows 7 certified and not even guaranteed to work on Windows 10 – in fact a lot of it won't work on Windows 10.</p><p>When we get each new Windows 10 release, we have to see what breaks, as to whether we can roll it out.</p><p>Our telephone software integrates with Outlook, but it is certified up to Windows 7 and Office 2007. It still, mostly, works with Windows 10 and Office 2016/2019/365, but some updates have broken it and had to be rolled back out and we had to wait for a fix to the Microsft borkage, so that we could install the Office updates.</p><p>Our ERP system runs on Server 2008 and nothing newer (it is a POSIX based port of a UNIX system from the 80s, written in COBOL and using btrieve "databases"). We are currently in the process of upgrading to a modern system that uses SQL Server and Java and will run on modern versions of Windows.</p><p>If the software suppliers can't even be bothered making their software compatible with Windows 10, let alone re-writing it to use modern technologies, what chance has Microsoft got of ever moving forwards?</p><p>Part of the problem is, Windows is a $100 part (roughly speaking, for corporate PCs), whereas the software and hardware that runs on it can run into the millions. Are you really going to re-invest millions in new software (and most probably replace perfectly working plant equipment, because it isn't compatible with the new software), just because a $100 widget has changed? People will just use the old widget, as long as the expensive parts of the system keep working and require that old widget.</p>

    • ponsaelius

      27 July, 2020 - 5:43 am

      <blockquote><em><a href="#557038">In reply to wright_is:</a></em></blockquote><p>Sure. A new modern Windows is not necessary for a lot of business. The old one is just fine.</p>

      • wright_is

        Premium Member
        28 July, 2020 - 12:44 am

        <blockquote><em><a href="#557048">In reply to ponsaelius:</a></em></blockquote><p>But that is the problem, as long as the old Windows is there, the software will have to work with it, so why bother writing for the new, if your software already works with the old? It is a "waste" of money.</p><p>That is the issue Microsoft faces. As long as they are beholden to industry, they can't leap out of Windows shadow and do something new and innovative, they have to lug that legacy cruft with them. If they abandon it, most people will stick with "old" Windows, because that is where their software is and it is what they use at work. We've seen this time and again, with Windows RT, Windows S Mode etc.</p>

    • hrlngrv

      Premium Member
      27 July, 2020 - 9:31 pm

      <p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/forums/microsoft/microsoft/thread/all-about-the-legacy#557038&quot; target="_blank"><em>In reply to wright_is:</em></a></p><p>Tangent: there are a few things I've come across which work under XP but not Windows 7, but I have to say I haven't come across anything which runs under Windows 7 or 8.x but not Windows 10 <strong><em>except</em></strong> for some bundled Windows applets. For example, MS Paint from Windows XP runs just fine under Windows 7, 8.x and 10, but the Windows 8.x Calculator won't run under Windows 10. FWLIW, the Windows XP Powertoy Calculator doesn't run under Windows 7 or later.</p>

      • wright_is

        Premium Member
        28 July, 2020 - 12:50 am

        <blockquote><em><a href="#557256">In reply to hrlngrv:</a></em></blockquote><p>Our PLC management software was Windows 7 only until about 18 months ago. It is now certified to work with 1609, but nothing later and then only with security patches that have been validated by the supplier.</p><p>There is some old Win16 software kicking around that won't work on newer Windows 10 releases – same problem, they dropped out the Win16 support a couple of years back and since then, PCs running that older software can't be upgraded any further.</p><p>Older hardware is also affected. certain processors have been abandoned over time, including some relatively new Atom chips. We also have a lot of printer, scientific equipment and controllers, where the software works on Windows 7, but not 10. It is often the drivers that are the problem and they won't install or won't run stably on Windows 10 and getting working drivers means buying new hardware; not a problem on a $100 or $200 printer or scanner, but a real problem on a $100,000 piece of scientific equipment or a $10,000,000 manufacturing line.</p>

  • anoldamigauser

    Premium Member
    27 July, 2020 - 11:14 am

    <p>I cannot agree that there is no point in supporting legacy in 2020. The legacy as you point out, is Windows, and it is doing fine, thank you very much. There is a lot of money to be made with it by Microsoft and others. Backwards compatibility also gives Microsoft a lot of good will from corporate accounts that have no desire to go back and rewrite business critical applications. Windows development should definitely continue, and they should work towards modularizing, and modernizing it to make that effort more efficient. It should remain backward compatible though.</p><p>As to the idea that they need a simpler system for the majority of users, I could not agree more.</p><p>ChromeOS works on both ARM and x64 hardware. They could fork a version of the open source Chromium OS built around the new Edge and an MSA or Microsoft 365 account. My guess is that this would take less effort than trying to get Windows 10X out the door, and will likely yield a system that is much simpler to maintain. That would at least let them compete in the education market on an equal footing. The problem with doing this, is that it is not so much a shot across Google's bow, but a full broadside; and I cannot imagine Google responding in a good way.</p><p>Another option might be to dust off Windows 10 Mobile, call it something that does not include "Windows" in the name, and get the new Edge browser on it. It would also be useful if it supported multiple accounts. At the end of the day though, they would have an OS running on ARM, compatible with Microsoft 365 in the cloud, that supports UWP and PWAs; it includes Continuum, and Remote Desktop, and Windows Virtual Desktop. Perhaps they can even dust off the Android Bridge to reduce the app-gap. It may not be as simple to maintain as Chrome OS but Google could not really complain that Microsoft is just rebranding Google technology. I think this too would be out the door quicker than 10X.</p><p> </p>

  • smartsupports4u

    27 July, 2020 - 11:21 pm

    <p><span style="background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Change </span><a href="Change WordPad to Notepad and I think you just described Mary Jo Foley" target="_blank" style="background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">WordPad</a><span style="background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> to Notepad and I think you just described Mary Jo Foley</span></p>

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