Complaining about Windows

I hear a lot of complains lately from Paul and others about Windows 10 and where this train is going.

The only thing Microsoft understands is marketshare. So here is the problem I have with the complaining from Paul and others. Its easy actually.

Why doesnt all the complainers simply stopp using Windows 10 when its so bad? A drop in marketshares is the only thing Microsoft will understand. All complains will accomplish nothing when no action follows: And that action is: Stopp using the product!

I know i will get a lot of minus points for this post. But I strongly belief this is the only way out of this.

i started to use Windows 8.1 again a few month ago. And guess what? I didnt miss any of the Windows 10 features at all. So what does this tell us about the quality of the product?

Conversation 43 comments

  • jumpingjackflash5

    01 April, 2018 - 2:56 am

    <p>Because on the desktop/notebook, there is no other real option than Apple and that is tied to their hardware. And because going back to 8.1 or 7 is viable, but not sustainable to the future.</p><p>But still, Microsoft needs to improve its approach to Windows signficantly, because they shake their user base a lot. </p>

    • SherlockHolmes

      Premium Member
      01 April, 2018 - 4:33 am

      <blockquote><a href="#258505"><em>In reply to jumpingjackflash5:</em></a></blockquote><p>Clearly you didnt understand my post. The option is to use an older version of Windows to bring marketshares of Windows 10 down. </p>

      • epguy40

        19 April, 2018 - 12:42 pm

        <blockquote><a href="#258510"><em>In reply to SherlockHolmes:</em></a></blockquote><p><br></p><p>yes but for how long? downgrading from win10 to win7 or win8.1 is okay for a few years and is pretty much a "short-term" solution</p>

  • Jules Wombat

    01 April, 2018 - 4:57 am

    <p>Windows 10 is perfectly OK, its just not particularly compelling or exciting. Mac OS, Android, Linux, are nothing special either Nothing much on the horizon, and PWA is diminishing any reliance upon the platform. Nothing to write home about, and thats the problem for Tech commentators. The Excitement now is elsewhere in the application of AI and Cloud Services. </p>

    • SherlockHolmes

      Premium Member
      01 April, 2018 - 5:26 am

      <blockquote><a href="#258511"><em>In reply to Jules_Wombat:</em></a></blockquote><p>Windows 10 is perfectly ok. Yeah right. With Microsoft taking away choices from its customers with every release. </p>

  • Paul Thurrott

    Premium Member
    01 April, 2018 - 10:07 am

    <p>I sort of agree with this. I feel like most Windows users would be OK with Windows 8.1 or 10 sans the Store, the advertising, the increasing lack of choice, and all the nonsense additions that have been crammed in there over the past few releases. I'd love to go back to a Setup-based "choose the features you want" screen, but realize that will never happen.</p>

    • SherlockHolmes

      Premium Member
      01 April, 2018 - 10:10 am

      <blockquote><a href="#258584"><em>In reply to paul-thurrott:</em></a></blockquote><p>True. Or simply go back and Update Windows 7 and forgett the whole leftovers of the mobile area</p>

    • arunphilip

      19 April, 2018 - 1:07 pm

      <blockquote><a href="#258584"><em>In reply to paul-thurrott:</em></a></blockquote><p><br></p><p>Heh, remember the old 'Full', 'Standard', 'Minimal' and 'Custom…' options? </p>

  • Angusmatheson

    01 April, 2018 - 11:38 am

    <p>I don’t see any user facing advances in any desktop OS since Windows 7, OSX mountain lion, maybe Ubuntu 12 (one could say unity itself was a huge step back, back the point is Linux of a few years worked great.) all the new features – Cortana, Siri, continuum, hand off, adds in the OS, difficult to put off updates- so OS is more up to date and so on. I am a fan of the desktop App Store but admit I almost never use them. There are security updates. I do think early windows 10 could run on lower powered machines that couldn’t handle windows 7 well. My argument is that nobody is really making their desktop OS better. Features that don’t make the experience better keep getting adding, in the quest for more features to put in a keynote or improve lock in or improve monetization and not focus of improving user experience. You argue that if windows 10 market share goes down – they will be forced to improve user experience. I am doubtful. If user experience mattered to the Windows team they could have spent the last 10 year improving it. I think instead they will foolishly double down on what they have been doing – adding features no one will use, trying to force lock in, windows will try use desktop to get advantages in mobile, MacOS will try to copy iOS feature onto the desktop. The decisions about what to do next are made by committees and not done in purely rational way which makes me sad. I wish desktop OS every version focused on making a better desktop experience. But market share drop or not I don’t see anyone changing OS development.</p>

  • sentinel6671

    Premium Member
    01 April, 2018 - 12:23 pm

    <p>There is merit to what you propose, as it's the one thing Microsoft might "hear". <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">The problem is, it's not practical.</span></p><p><br></p><p>Am I about to go to my family and help them get onto an older version? Nope. Am I going to have my IT company at work waste time and effort downgrading all our PCs? Nope, not happening.</p><p><br></p><p>The majority of folks want to get their stuff done on their computers…broad "big ticket" issues like the erosion of user choice matter very little. The changes in Windows 10 are not bad or noticeable enough to impact the ability to get work done…for the majority of people. Power users are most impacted because we think about things too deeply and like to endlessly fiddle for no good reason. I've been a power user, but grew sick of it over the years because it's a useless waste of time. I fiddle far, far less than I used to.</p><p><br></p><p>Most of the fluffy crap in Windows 10 can be turned off or shoved into the background to be ignored. Once that's done, I like knowing I'm on a relatively secure, modern platform. </p><p><br></p><p>The thing that does kill me about Windows 10? The twice yearly updates for no good reason. It's a burden at work, but there are no good alternatives to leave for. I suppose we could trade all our workstations in for Macs, but we'd need IE because of a line of business app. Linux is not an option because, as I understand it, there's not a good Exchange compatible email client equivalent. I've never believed in clinging to old platforms, for safety and security sake, so a backwards move is not viable. It's frankly easier to work out a plan to manage the updates on a set schedule.</p>

    • wright_is

      Premium Member
      02 April, 2018 - 4:41 am

      <blockquote><a href="#258605"><em>In reply to sentinel6671:</em></a></blockquote><p>I agree. And if that were the case, then these people would also not be using iPhones or Android phones, at least not with the official Google approved experience, or an Amazon Fire or Echo device… What Microsoft "forces" on users is way less than what Google and Amazon force on users, in the way of data gathering, and most of it can be turned off. If you turn everything off, it doesn't leak much more than Windows 7 or Windows 8.</p><p>There was a article in Spiegel or Focus this month (German magazines, I'm not sure which one it was), a couple of families volunteered to go a month without Alexa or Google Assistant. It was absolutely hilarious, they were "worried" when they woke up, because Alexa wouldn't answer them, when they said "good morning Alexa," they thought it was the end of the world, becuase they weren't getting at least 2 packages a day from Amazon (they had access to Amazon and Google removed for the month).</p><p>One person ran out of double-sided tape and it was a major catastrophy, because they couldn't order replacement tape online! They didn't even consider driving 5 minutes to the local DIY store or supermarket, nope, no Amazon = no goods being delivered = end of the world.</p><p>On the other hand, we spent the evening at a friend's playing games, so we walked up there, leaving our phones at home and nobody looked at a phone or computer screen of any kind the whole evening, we just played games and talked to each other. Real life is great, if you don't spend so much time writing about it that you miss it!</p>

      • jimchamplin

        Premium Member
        22 April, 2018 - 10:40 am

        <blockquote><a href="#258675"><em>In reply to wright_is:</em></a></blockquote><p>Were these people in good mental health to begin with?</p>

  • wunderbar

    Premium Member
    01 April, 2018 - 3:35 pm

    <p>Yea… pretty sure the number of people who are savvy enough to actually actively downgrade their PC's to Windows 8.1 or 7 to "punish" Microsoft is statistically zero.</p><p><br></p><p>So nice try.</p>

    • SherlockHolmes

      Premium Member
      02 April, 2018 - 12:17 am

      <blockquote><a href="#258607"><em>In reply to wunderbar:</em></a></blockquote><p>Better a "nice try" then sitting back and look at how Microsoft ruins Windows!</p>

      • wright_is

        Premium Member
        02 April, 2018 - 4:34 am

        <blockquote><a href="#258662"><em>In reply to SherlockHolmes:</em></a></blockquote><p>If they are trying to punish Microsoft, why not go to Linux or Mac? If you downgrade to Windows 7, you are still paying Microsoft for the privilege – and more than a standard Windows 10 license, which most home PCs come with, to downgrade Windows 10 to Windows 7, you first have to upgrade it to Windows 10 Pro, Windows 10 has no downgrade rights, it is witheld for businesses.</p>

        • SherlockHolmes

          Premium Member
          02 April, 2018 - 7:11 am

          <blockquote><a href="#258674"><em>In reply to wright_is:</em></a></blockquote><p>Because specially for Gamers, Linux is not an alternative. </p>

          • hrlngrv

            Premium Member
            02 April, 2018 - 12:28 pm

            <p><a href="#258694"><em>In reply to SherlockHolmes:</em></a></p><p>Is Windows 8.1 an option for games which rely on the very latest DirectX?</p>

            • SherlockHolmes

              Premium Member
              02 April, 2018 - 2:52 pm

              <p>Game Developers still use DirectX11 more then DirectX12. So actually, yeah!</p>

              • jimchamplin

                Premium Member
                22 April, 2018 - 10:39 am

                <blockquote><a href="#258821"><em>In reply to SherlockHolmes:</em></a></blockquote><p>Do you ever miss the good old days where DX was an installable package and wasn’t tied to the OS?</p>

  • karlinhigh

    Premium Member
    02 April, 2018 - 7:24 am

    <p>Here's a thing Microsoft might "understand." Imagine if Fortune 500 companies started pouring resources into something like ReactOS, and it reaches the point where it can do anything Windows 7 could.</p>

    • hrlngrv

      Premium Member
      02 April, 2018 - 5:14 pm

      <p><a href="#258695"><em>In reply to karlinhigh:</em></a></p><p>Pouring money into wine or CrossOver may be a more efficient use of funds since Linux and macOS already handle several tasks adequately, e.g., partitioning drives.</p>

      • jimchamplin

        Premium Member
        22 April, 2018 - 10:37 am

        <blockquote><a href="#258893"><em>In reply to hrlngrv:</em></a></blockquote><p>I believe that Wine and ReactOS cross-contribute, so I’m pretty sure that ReactOS would be a happy project either way! </p>

  • yaddamaster

    19 April, 2018 - 4:46 pm

    <p>Um, no. I hated Windows 8.0. Tolerated 8.1 only because 8.0 was so bad…..and absolutely love 10. Even more than Windows 7.</p>

    • srtbb

      22 April, 2018 - 10:30 pm

      <blockquote><a href="#264360"><em>In reply to yaddamaster:</em></a></blockquote><p>? Umm, why? Win 7 runs my programs just as well as 10 does and with less system resources. 10 just gets in my way with notifications and all the advertising that 7 doesn't have. Win 10 is a downgrade from Windows 7.</p>

  • wright_is

    Premium Member
    20 April, 2018 - 4:45 am

    <p>It depends on what your needs are.</p><p> I'd like MS to stop the telemetry data in Windows 10, because it makes in non-compliant with EU law, especially in business.</p><p>With Enterprise, you can lock down most of the data – enough that my CIO will let me configure Enterprise with enough policies to cap 95% of the data it tries to send back to MS.</p><p>This is a boon, because I was having to try and install Windows 7 on a new Lenovo Yoga 920 yesterday! The drivers for Windows 7 for Kaby Lake processors are available from Lenovo, but the IdeaPad Yoga 920 doesn't support SMC (legacy mode), so you can't install W7 on it. The Kaby Lake ThinkPads on the other hand… They come with a complete set of W7 64-bit drivers.</p><p>I prefer Windows 10 to other versions, but this problem makes it hard to recommend. But I still use it, because I need the WSL (well, I could use W7 with Cygwin or similar, but WSL is a part of W10 and makes it more integrated and stable). Likewise, I use Hyper-V on Windows 10 extensively for testing. With W7, I'd be stuck with VMWare Player or VirtualBox, neither of which work as well as Hyper-V.</p>

  • rameshthanikodi

    20 April, 2018 - 6:24 am

    <p>People complain about every single version of Windows. Even Windows 7 had people complaining about it, despite being the least ambitious and least offensive version of Windows ever.</p><p><br></p><p>I think the people who are complaining about Windows just want Microsoft to stop trying. Some of them are just quasi-windows users who really just want to be on Linux full-time but can't because of various reasons. To them, they use Windows as a shell for Chrome or Steam or whatever. They don't want to care about anything else. </p><p><br></p><p>Unfortunately that's not how the real world works, Microsoft has to keep trying. Obviously Windows 8 was a huge misstep but Windows 10 seems to be stemming the tide well enough so far.</p><p><br></p><p>As long as I can remember, Windows has been the butt of jokes in the industry. These complainers (often self-declared 'power users') have just forgotten about that, instead yearning for the 'good-old days' where it was widely slammed as second-rate compared to the competition.</p>

  • Tony Barrett

    20 April, 2018 - 6:31 am

    <p>If it was that easy, loads more would be doing it, but MS have done everything they can do stop people installing older versions of Windows (nothing to stop them switching to Linux though ;-). It's not in Microsoft's interest for anyone to be running anything other than Windows 10, but, it's in the customers interest to have a choice, and choice is what MS are taking away. </p><p>I bought a new laptop earlier this year, and it came with Win10. Because I have no interest in 10, I tried installing Win7 – no drivers, so no dice. I tried installing Win8.1, which was better, but still not all drivers and some odd quirks. In the end, I had no choice but to go back to Win10. It's just about bareable once you strip out all the cr*p, but when I 'had no choice' but to install the FCU update, so many things broke I had to do another fresh install.</p><p>Do you see the theme here, we have 'no choice', and MS will keep turning the screw to ensure this – if you want to stay with Windows. On older hardware already running Win7 or 8.1, maybe it's an easier decision (I do this on other older PC's I have), but eventually, it looks like MS will get their way.</p>

    • NT6.1

      23 April, 2018 - 4:40 pm

      <blockquote><a href="#264518"><em>In reply to ghostrider:</em></a></blockquote><p><br></p><p>Oh, we do have choice. Just disable Windows Update service. Download the security patches manually, turn off WiFi and turn on Windows Update service to install the patch. That's what I do. There was a time when even with Windows Update service disabled they found a way to start downloading the Fall Creators whatever. I shut all the shit down and deleted everything. :-)</p>

  • Daekar

    20 April, 2018 - 9:42 am

    <p>I don't really understand the complaining. Has Microsoft been a bit rudderless as they floundered around trying to find the role of Windows in the new world? Well yes, and we have useless bits of code like Paint 3D to show for it. But still, for my purposes Windows 10 IS the best version of Windows I've ever used, and given my personal needs there are no other platforms that can compete with it.</p><p><br></p><p>If MS came out with Office apps (PWA please!) and a OneDrive sync client that both ran on popular Linux distros, well… I would be a happy camper and stay in their little playground forever regardless of whether I kept using Windows or not.</p>

  • Darekmeridian

    20 April, 2018 - 11:31 am

    <p>Reading through the comments on this post the one one obvious point is that how you approach Windows is key to what's important to you.</p><p><br></p><p>Personally I get excited because when I copy a large file I am done working on from my local connected drive to archive it in cold storage and it takes a whole minute and thirty seconds less than it used to because they have done optimization work on the copy command in Explorer I don't expect anyone else to ever notice that but it's a big deal for me.</p><p><br></p><p>What unsettles me a little is the whole 'if it's not something in my workflow, then it shouldn't be in Windows" type of thinking.</p><p><br></p><p>Windows is one of the most flexible modern operating systems that exists, there is still a ton of 3rd party software that is available so it's not like you are stuck with the system defaults like "Mail" and Paint3D if you want to spend minimum effort actually Googling or asking someone online.</p><p><br></p><p>Also this thing about where the Windows 10 train is going, well I think we are under the misconception that Microsoft is dictating where the market is going, Microsoft is playing catch up to an industry that's undergoing a huge change .</p>

  • AnOldAmigaUser

    Premium Member
    20 April, 2018 - 12:14 pm

    <p>It seems to me that there is far too much navel gazing going on regarding operating systems. If you are worried about privacy in Windows 10, give up more privacy and use a Chromebook, or spend more for a Macintosh, or install a Linux distro if that is what you want. Use whatever works for you and makes you comfortable with the tradeoffs.</p><p><br></p><p>At the end of the day, does the OS matter? I care about my data, and the applications I need to create, view and update it. That is all that matters.</p>

    • Paul Thurrott

      Premium Member
      20 April, 2018 - 1:09 pm

      <blockquote><a href="#264636"><em>In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:</em></a></blockquote><p>This is too much common sense. :)</p>

    • NT6.1

      23 April, 2018 - 4:35 pm

      <blockquote><a href="#264636"><em>In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:</em></a></blockquote><p><br></p><p>That's all very nice. But There are Windows programs not supported on Linux and MacOS.</p>

      • AnOldAmigaUser

        Premium Member
        27 April, 2018 - 3:27 pm

        <blockquote><a href="#265319"><em>In reply to NT6.1:</em></a></blockquote><p>…and that makes the choice pretty obvious, doesn't it? If you need those programs, you need windows. There are applications on Linux and OSX that do not exist on Windows. If you need those, then again, the choice is pretty obvious.</p><p>If the operating system bothers you so much, then stop using those programs and find alternatives.</p><p>Computers are tools that you use to do something. A hammer drives nails, but the point is not driving nails but joining two pieces of wood. Sometimes though, a screw or adhesive is a better choice for joining the pieces. You choose the tool that works best. It is the same with an operating system.</p>

  • Hassan Timité

    20 April, 2018 - 1:48 pm

    <p>Well, the only thing a drastic fall of Windows 10 market share will have would be to accelerate the death of Windows.</p><p>You see Microsoft of the satya era do not really care about Windows and its market share.</p><p>The only things Microsoft really care nowadays are cloud solutions/services.</p><p>According to this philosophy, they do not care that those solutions are used on Windows or Android or IOS or MacOS or Linux,etc…</p><p>In fact i am almost certain that Microsoft want to kill Windows client, they already kill Windows Mobile/Phone, to focus exclusively on cloud solutions/services.</p><p>Of course those solutions needed Azure and to some extent Windows Server but i am sure that at soon as they can kill Windows Server, they will do it to.</p>

  • Minke

    22 April, 2018 - 7:52 pm

    <p>Windows 10 is better than 8.1 and 7 IMHO, though there are many areas I would like to see improved. Someone in the thread hit the nail on the head in noting that many so-called "features" are not particularly useful and instead seem to be designed to extract more revenue from users. Edge comes to mind with its constant nagging to switch, but then when I gave in and tried it I was unable to import my bookmarks accurately from Chrome, among other bugs. I'm not going to switch to an app that doesn't work properly! Personally, I think the future will be in the cloud with Chromebooks and other systems like that but more powerful for business users. In the meantime, I use both Windows 10 and Endless OS (Linux) at home, Windows 7 Pro at work, and my wife has a Macbook. I use Android phones and my wife has an iPhone. The beauty of today's operating systems is that they are more compatible than ever, and it is entirely possible to work cross-platform. </p>

  • srtbb

    22 April, 2018 - 10:26 pm

    <p>Marketshare has been dropping for years yet MS is still making a stinking pile of poo. What does that tell you?</p>

    • Paul Thurrott

      Premium Member
      23 April, 2018 - 11:56 am

      <blockquote><a href="#265161"><em>In reply to srtbb:</em></a></blockquote><p>That it makes money from other businesses. :)</p>

  • RR

    22 April, 2018 - 11:57 pm

    <p>As a somewhat non-power user in these paths: you are wasting your time. Normal users don't care about all the esoteric nonsense (to borrown a Thurrottism) the 0.1% navel gaze about. What is wrong with Windows 10? Yesterday I copied a photo off Facebook by just clicking &amp; clipping with the pen in Edge. I said wow! I didn't even know I could do that. I send annotated websites up and down. My laptop has keyboard and touch. When I get a document to markup these days, I just sign it as if it were real. I comes out clear and professional, and I have not wasted time ink and paper printing and scanning back. My computer is now linked to my phone, I get text and reply right here on the PC, so my work is not interrupted. Windows 7 could not do that when I used it. On my Yoga, I sign in with my finger print, on my Surface with my face. Startup and wake from sleep are now at fractions what it used to be. These are tons of benefits to average Joe Blow, and I know I probably use like 10% of its capability. </p><p>In what way to does Windows 10 restrict choice? I use it same way I have ever used any other Microsoft OS, and I do not feel constrained in any way. So maybe a few "ads" (it is even silly to call them that, it's not like Microsoft ever instruments the user for a third party, "ad" like Google, they are giving you tips to use their own product, you can ignore it). I see about the same amount of "ads" on my iPad from Apple. Definitely if I switched to Google, the data I would have to give up to do that would be much worse, then Google would be following me even more across the internet. So I should bury my head in the sand and pretend like that's not happening, but if Microsoft ever says "hey, you can use photos app for that" I'd be up in arms. </p>

  • Lauren Glenn

    23 April, 2018 - 11:29 am

    <p>I don't mind 10 at all. For me, I'm glad to know that I'll get constant updates without having to deal with drivers that don't work like I did when I went from 7 to 10 on my laptop (ultimately everything had drivers somewhere that worked except for a couple pieces… like a fingerprint sensor). Every update to Windows (except 8 to 10) had driver incompatibility from one to another (OK, maybe Vista -&gt; 7 didn't either). I'd like it to settle down for a bit.</p><p><br></p><p>The best part of 10 for me is that I can take my drive out and put in a new activated laptop and I'm good to go after a reboot. 7 can't do that and it definitely has a hard time repairing itself on a boot BSOD unlike 8 or 10. I'm not going back from 10. It works for everything I need it to work for.</p>

  • vann

    27 April, 2018 - 12:33 pm

    <p>Having only briefly played with Windows 10 N (Pro) in VirtualBox, it appears to release with much less bloatware installed by default.</p><p>Not sure about any oem licensing issues, but I think I'm going to give this a try this April release.</p><p>Is anyone else specifically using the N edition for this same reason?</p>

    • Paul Thurrott

      Premium Member
      27 April, 2018 - 12:38 pm

      <blockquote><a href="#266454"><em>In reply to vann:</em></a></blockquote><p>Interesting. I'm almost tempted to look myself.</p>

      • vann

        27 April, 2018 - 3:21 pm

        <blockquote><a href="#266462"><em>In reply to paul-thurrott:</em></a></blockquote><p>Having only played with this for a couple of days now, I've just set up 2 new virtual (unactivated) installations incl. latest updates to double check and compare.</p><p>Don't dare to say this out loud yet, but based on first impressions, I almost went from "I hate all things Microsoft and their monetizing scheme" to "This is what I wanted to see after Windows 7". Even done unintentionally and probably going to have some mayor licensing issues. Perhaps especially for people outside the EU.</p>

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