Microsoft to Require Vaccinations at All U.S. Locations

Posted on August 3, 2021 by Paul Thurrott in Microsoft with 115 Comments

Microsoft will require its employees and all others to be fully vaccinated before they can return to its U.S. office locations in October.

“As we have done since the beginning of the pandemic, we continue to closely track new developments and adapt our plans as this situation evolves, keeping employee health and safety top of mind,” a Microsoft spokesperson said. “We continue to review the situation on a local basis in each region, country, and state where we work and will adjust dates and policies as needed.”

To be clear, Microsoft isn’t just requiring that employees be vaccinated: This requirement will extend to all vendors and guests, too, so basically everyone who might set foot in the door. The software giant will, of course, accommodate employees who have medical conditions or even religious reasons for not being vaccinated. And those who are caring for family members who don’t qualify for vaccinations, like children and the immunosuppressed, can continue working from home until January.

Microsoft now plans to reopen its U.S. facilities starting October 4, though that date could, of course, shift depending on the situation. Previously, it expected to begin opening its office on September 7.

Google announced last week that it, too, will require employees to be vaccinated before they can return to the office. Other tech firms, like Facebook, have announced similar requirements.

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Comments (115)

115 responses to “Microsoft to Require Vaccinations at All U.S. Locations”

  1. simont

    Hopefully the comments on this story don't get too nasty here.

  2. jrswarr

    To me it's simple math. Vaccinated - 0.001% chance of death. Unvaccinated - 1.0%. You do the math however you feel.

    • bluvg

      One would think Ben Shapiro's "facts don't care about your feelings" might have more traction among his fanbase. I guess only when you like the facts. Or you pick "your" facts.

      • hrlngrv

        Shapiro was wrong. Beliefs don't care about feelings, but, sadly, beliefs aren't always based on facts.

        • waethorn

          Shapiro is controlled opposition. He was caught on camera telling his crew to delete a section of a video where he talks about pansexuals being weird, just because he thought he would be demonetized if he left it in. He is a protected individual on YouTube, in the pockets of Liberal media. And he never voted for Trump BTW. Lying seems to be something the Left does a lot.

          • anoldamigauser

            "...And he never voted for Trump BTW. Lying seems to be something the Left does a lot."

            As opposed to the Big Lie that Trump won the election? He did not.

            • waethorn

              How's your gas prices and cost of groceries again?

              Wait until the audits conclude. So far, they're pretty telling: 140,000+ invalid ballots in Maricopa County alone where Biden only "won" by 11,000.

              Biden is only President because he cheated better, not because he won. He's incomprehensible. You should be ashamed of what has become of the US government at large and the electoral process in general. What has Biden done that's been any good for the country, other than that he supplanted the President that you despise so much?

              Tell me something though: why is it that if COVID is such a disaster, that the Southern Border remains a free-for-all for hundreds of thousands of untested, unvaccinated migrants that are deposited in Democrat cities while American citizens are locked down and subjugated to medical experiments, hmm???

              • anoldamigauser

                I worked the polls on election day, and I can tell you why Trump lost. He did not have the support of Republican voters outside the extreme right, at least in the area around Philly. At the end of in-person voting, the down ballot Republican candidates in the district where I worked had leads of at least 4:1...Trump, just 3:2. When the absentee ballots were counted, he lost by a margin of 3:2, or 20%. A number of the down ballot Republican candidates actually won. The vote total from 2016 to 2020 differed by about 20 votes, so don't bother spewing crap about illegal votes.

                Four years of his travelling circus, with nothing accomplished other than a tax cut that gave money to the top 1% while simply fiddling with the withholding amounts for working stiffs (...did not cut their taxes, most ended up owing. And any relief they got was removed in the out years) was enough to convince a majority of voters that he did not deserve another chance.

                If you think the economy would be doing any better or worse with the former social media influencer running things, you are mistaken. The President has little impact on the economy, though they all like to say they do.

              • hrlngrv

                Are you a Cyber Ninja? There've been no public reports from the audit, have there? And there's no proof the audit was accurate or procedurally sound.

                Besides, give both Arizona and Georgia to Trump, and Biden would still win in the Electoral College, 279 to 259. However, I suppose you also believe Trump should have won California because there were millions of votes cast by noncitizens.

      • karlinhigh

        Excerpts from an article by Megan McArdle, titled "Liberals Share Conservatives' Authoritarian Bias." Unsure of original source, it has lots of re-posts. Apparently it is easier to submit an authority or institution if we perceive it as sharing or promoting our values. Quotes:

        "The way I saw it, this slavish obedience to authority and tradition on the part of conservatives was the true source of the culture war between liberals and conservatives over foreign war, abortion, same-sex marriage, gun control, and racial inequality," writes Jeremy Frimer. "They way I saw it, conservatives clung to old, near-sighted ways of thinking and fell in line with the dictates of the 'man in charge.' If only conservatives would think for themselves — like liberals do — the war would be over and we could get on with life, governance, and progress. Or so I thought. Then, in 2012, I went on a cycling trip around Cuba."

        Frimer noticed that socialists seemed unable to tolerate even mild questioning of Che Guevara's eminently questionable legacy. Frimer is a researcher at the University of Winnipeg, and he decided to investigate. What he found is that liberals are actually very comfortable with authority and obedience — as long as the authorities are liberals ("should you obey an environmentalist?"). And that conservatives then became much less willing to go along with "the man in charge."

        • bluvg

          The facts also don't care about a false dichotomy of liberal vs. conservative feelings about authority as they concern vaccination and the virus. ?

          • karlinhigh

            Facts... in a postmodern world, it is questioned who gets to decide what counts as a "fact."

            Meta-analyses of multiple randomized controlled trials in peer-reviewed publications that show $COVID_RESPONSE is (or is not) effective... nah, not buying it, let's look for problems with the studies or the authors.

            • hrlngrv

              Use the scientific method. Everything consistent with observations (data/evidence) is accepted as contingent fact, and all such facts are subject to possible refutation when inconsistent with future observations.

              The ratios of vaccinated vs unvaccinated in current COVID hospital admissions makes it rather difficult to consider the proposition that the vaccines are ineffective to be fact.

    • wolters

      I never respond to articles like this but I do have some comments because my workplace, a small business, tried to force vaccines back in March.

      Back in March, my workplace gave everyone 2 weeks to get the shot or lose their jobs and it was pretty much spelled out that way. Somehow, it spread on social media and the owner backed away from it to save the reputation and talent for the business. They still offered the shot (2 doses) for those who wanted it.

      One of the biggest arguments in the workplace was that HIPPA laws should allow the privacy if someone got the vaccine or not. The general consensus was how can a virus spread so fast and then less than a year a vaccine was available when most vaccines need years of study. The business owner saw the logic in that and backed off from the requirement.

      Our office never shut down, we wore masks when leaving our desks until May 2021 and we now just encourage healthy behavior which includes encouraging the vaccine or healthy habits like vitamins, elderberry, washing hands, drinking a lot of water. We have 170 employees and no one, at least publicly known, got Covid.

      • cnc123

        Is your conclusion then that there is no risk from COVID?

      • bluvg

        "most vaccines need years of study"

        Your boss may not have gone about it the right way, but why not get vaccinated? mRNA research started 1971, with research really taking off in the 90s. If 4B+ doses, started over a year ago, showing a dramatic impact on infection (and therefore transmissibility), severe disease, and death aren't enough of evidence, what else will do it? A decade-long pandemic?

        In contrast, we do know the side effects of COVID. Delta is infectious as chicken pox. Don't stop taking zinc, vitamin D, etc... but those pale in effectiveness to the vaccine. You might not die from it if you get it, but not getting infected (which the vaccines dramatically prevent) will greatly reduce the spread, and you might prevent someone else from dying. And help put an end to the pandemic, and lockdowns, and masks, and closed schools. And more, worse variants. And help the economy. And strengthen the US. And....

      • jgraebner

        HIPAA (there is no such thing as "HIPPA"...) is totally irrelevant to the situation you describe, unless your employer was contacting the employees' health care provider or insurance company and obtaining vaccine status from them without the employee's consent. That law only has jurisdiction in the health care and insurance industries and, even then, it in no way regulates direct interactions with the patient.

        (My wife is a medical records specialist. I've heard long rants on this...)

    • RM2016

      How about some actual data and sources?

  3. north of 49th

    I wish people would understand that they have a duty of care to the society that they live in. That should include doing what we need to so as not to infect others with a deadly virus.

    I think legally employers are obligated (specific laws not withstanding) to have a duty of care to their employees to provide a safe working environment. Will someone challenge this in court – I have no doubt.

    As a depressing reminder, the longer we let this pandemic drag on the more variants we create.  I want to list the variants of interest that have been documented as of July 21st (in baseball lingo - think of this list as the batters 'on deck' at a baseball game with the variants of concern at the plate):

    Epsilon (B.1.427, B.1.429) May 2021 – designation date

    Zeta (P.2) May 2021

    Eta (B.1.525) May 2021

    Theta (P.3) May 2021

    Iota (B.1.526, B.1.526.1) May 2021

    Kappa (B.1.617.1) July 2021

    Lambda (C.37) July 2021

    In baseball lingo, as a society we need to retire this lineup before they get to bat.

  4. ebraiter

    If you work in a business, you [as owners or company's management] should be allowed to say who walks in and who doesn't. Governments have no right to tell businesses who can or can't walk into a non-government building when it comes to the safety of employees and guests.

    Does this mean a restaurant has the right to refuse a drunk from eating at the restaurant doesn't have the right for a person without any jabs to be allowed to eat? Both could be dangerous to those in the restaurant.

    The UK government has been one of the worst governments when it comes to how they handled the pandemic. Others [in my opinion] include the states of Florida, Texas and Louisiana in the US and the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan in Canada.

    • richfrantz

      A "public" space or building is one that was paid for with taxpayer money. Other places, like grocery stores are "open to the public" until the management revokes your invitation to be there. It is in fact not public and they can say who can and who can't be there.

  5. anoldamigauser

    All these folks who are worried about being forced to put something in their body, and invoking HIPPA requirements are hypocrites. They are the first to tell women what to do with their bodies, and to worry about what others are doing in the privacy of their homes.

    It is always a case or their rights over everyone else's rights.

    • zhackwyatt

      That's a BS argument, and it's not hypocritical at all if you would spend 5 seconds trying to understand where the other side was actually coming from instead of just quoting the normal mantra.

      But since this is, and I respect him and the website, I will say nothing further on the matter as it isn't the place.

  6. a_lurker

    There are problems with MS' policy: HIPPA, medical, and religious. HIPPA says health information can only be released to those who need to know when they need to know. A nurse taking care of you needs to see your information but the nurse in another ward does not. It is not clear MS has the legal 'need to know' to know an employee's vaccination status. There are some who should get the jabs because of their current health. If the policy does not acknowledge this MS could be on the wrong end of lawsuit very fast. Some religious groups (Christian Scientists for example) shun medical treatments and thus vaccinations. Again, another nasty lawsuit lurking if the policy does not correctly handle this.

    • cavalier_eternal

      HIPPA regulates how healthcare providers and health insurance companies can share patients data. Since Microsoft and it’s employees are not healthcare providers or insurances companies HIPPA is entirely irrelevant.

      Further, employers requiring vaccinations or proof of vaccinations is neither new or illegal. Schools, healthcare providers/caregivers, first responders and the U.S. Military are all examples of professions that require vaccinations and proof of vaccinations.

  7. vladimir

    I wonder if, again, this is all Facebook's fault

  8. madthinus

    Can we make some post not have comments? I would like that.

  9. waethorn

    LOL It’s like as if Microsoft designed an antivirus for Unix.

  10. Brent Morris

    ..But HEY... they canceled Windows they got that going for them.

  11. StevenLayton

    Look, everyone is entitled to their own opinions on vaccinations. Even the selfish dumb asses who don’t believe in it.

    • hrlngrv

      Everyone's entitled to their own preferences for their own health and their own opinion on the value and/or ineluctability of natural selection. However, when it comes to PUBLIC health, the community, in the form of government, has the power (legally established in common law countries) to enforce quarantines. Restrictions on those who refuse vaccination are just a form of quarantine.

  12. fishnet37222

    I am so glad I don't work for Microsoft. I am the only person who has any authority over what goes into my body.

  13. lvthunder

    We trust you to write code that billions of customers rely on, but we don't trust you enough to make your own medical decisions.

    • vladimir

      it's not your own medical decision. It's a decision that affects public health

      • lvthunder

        Almost every medical decision is like that though. If I have a heart attack driving down the freeway at 60MPH you don't think there is a chance I could kill someone else.

        You missed my point though. My point was not if you should or should not get the vaccine. My point was trust. Do you trust your employees to do the right thing or not. Microsoft trusts their employees to do the best they can at their jobs but doesn't trust them to make the decision to get vaccinated and protect themselves.

        • bluvg

          "Do you trust your employees to do the right thing or not."

          Almost no company follows this dictum, at least not for very long. They inevitably get burnt by someone stealing supplies, embezzling, etc. etc.

      • mryves707

        as vaccination doesnt seem to stop the spreading of the virus as latest studies suggest, its first of all a private decision for your own health. there shouldn't be a requirement for a not fully approved gen experiement. definitly not!

        • hrlngrv

          Vaccines do reduce the odds of needing hospitalization, and since every ICU bed used for a COVID case is an ICU bed unavailable for those suffering the usual illnesses and traumatic injuries of life for which there are no vaccinations does produce a PUBLIC HEALTH problem which higher rates of vaccination would mitigate.

          What's really needed in the US is an allowance for healthcare insurers to exclude coverage for COVID treatment AND testing for those who refuse vaccination. Sure you should have the freedom not to be vaccinated AS LONG AS you risk incurring the FULL COSTS of your personal choice. Fair, no?

          • bluvg

            Yes, why should I, through taxes or insurance payments, have to cover their own choice to have another ba... I mean, not get vaccinated?

            • waethorn

              Why should I pay insurance to cover your heart attack caused by vaccine-induced blood clots? See how that works?

              • cavalier_eternal

                Do you even know what health insurance is? The entire purpose of group health insurance is to pool money to cover medical charges. You pay for it because that is entire f-clicking point of health insurance. Just like all the vaccinated people get to pay for the healthcare treatment of the anti-vax crowd that gets covid.

              • hrlngrv

                You have any links to credible reports of vaccine-induced blood clots? Or vaccine-induced complications of any kind beyond feeling a bit out of sorts after a shot?

          • spullum

            I fully agree that we should require vaccinations but I can go off the cliff of using lack of access to healthcare as punishment. If we believe that healthcare is a right, we need to treat everyone. To avoid the problem of ICU beds being used wastefully (in the sense of preventable), I fully support vaccination mandates to go inside any public or non-household, private shared spaces accessible to the public (businesses, schools, parks, etc.).

        • max daru

          Most vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity. The Pfizer vaccine is 95% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms in people age 16 and older and 100% effective for kids 12-15. This is still astounding.

        • bluvg

          There is a missing piece of data among that data:

          Infected vaccinated and unvaccinated spread Delta at the same rate.

          Vaccination still has a big impact on the spread, because the data shows it still significantly reduces infection, not to mention severe disease/death and all the secondary implications that has on healthcare etc. etc. (And, the numbers of breakthrough infections are going to go up... because statistics.)

          • rosyna

            There is less than 1% in breakthrough infections in those vaccinated, depending on the number of unvaccinated around them. For Oklahoma, that’s 0.9%. For places with a large vaccinated population, it’s less than 0.1%.

            • bluvg

              Interesting stats! I hadn't read those--thank you!

              With vaccination doses in the hundreds of millions in the US, 0.1-0.9% is still a large number of people. That will certainly be misconstrued to support some anti-vax argument by and for people that don't understand math.

        • Matthew Hair

          Incarcerating criminals doesn't prevent all crimes, therefor we shouldn't mandate minimum sentences. Speed limits don't prevent all car crashes, therefore we shouldn't mandate speed limits. Police firearms don't stop all bad guys from killing officers, so we shouldn't mandate sidearm for officers... Same faulty reasoning all around.

        • vladimir

          First of all, The vaccination doesn’t stop but is very likely to slow down the spreading of the virus. Secondly more people not vaccinated means more people in hospitals, less healthcare available for people with other illnesses, more restrictions. Not getting a vaccine is a decision that affects everyone, not only yourself

          • bluvg

            "Only socialist healthcare systems have to worry about this."

            So for the US, it won't affect taxpayers because we don't have Medicare or any other govt-supported healthcare? And we don't have a limit on beds because we're not "socialist"?

            "If you're rich, you can afford good healthcare and COVID doesn't affect you because you make up the laws for all the little people that you don't have to abide by"

            Just like the previous president getting medical treatment for COVID that few others could ever afford, then telling people it's no big deal.

            "And if you're poor, COVID seemingly doesn't affect you since all the tent cities"

            Poor are only found in tent cities?

            Seriously. If you're going to troll, troll better.

          • pecosbob04

            " like Pelosi and Biden removing their masks for photo ops when they think the news cameras are turned off." You realize of course that photo ops are more effective when the cameras are turned on. Or so I've heard.

      • ringofvoid

        Consider the case of Offspring drummer Pete Parada, who due to his Guillain-Barré Syndrome, has been advised by his doctor not to take the vaccine due to painful side effects. He has been fired from the band. Now, he's a COVID-19 survivor, so he has natural immunity to the virus. Based on the science, he's at low risk of getting or transmitting the virus. Why can't exceptions be made for cases like this?

    • codymesh

      yeah coding is totally just like healthcare

    • cavalier_eternal

      By this reasoning, it is really a struggle to call in it reasoning, Microsoft should let people smoke at their desks because people know what is best for their bodies. It doesn’t matter that it is a health risk to others or that Microsoft has an ethical and legal obligation to provide a safe workspace, nope… Joe dumbass get’s to smoke at work because he knows what is best for his body.

    • Matthew Hair

      MS actually don't trust individuals to write mission critical code. They do code reviews and a whole lot of testing before an individual developer's code ever gets released.

      • waethorn

        Really? Then why did they lay off - what was it again? - 11,000 QA testers before Windows 10 shipped?

        • bluvg

          One thing we might agree on: getting rid of QA was likely a bad decision. But Matthew Hair is still right, and getting rid of QA doesn't mean they don't do code review and testing now, or didn't before they had QA. Dave Cutler was famous for his way of ensuring quality during the development of NT.

      • lvthunder

        Then why do so many things get through broken? How many times did it take them to fix the Print Nightmare stuff?

        • Matthew Hair

          Broken things make it through code review and testing because even groups of people working together aren't perfect.

          • bluvg

            To your point, it hasn't really worked for OSS and its "many eyes" principle, either: lots of bugs found that date back many years or a even decade+. But that doesn't invalidate what they are extremely passionate about: the principle of trust, on many levels.

    • remc86007

      I think many in this country have proven that they can't be trusted.

      I live in Jacksonville FL which is pretty much leading the way in COVID cases right now. All our hospitals are full, have stopped elective surgeries, and the staff are completely overwhelmed. Nurses like my wife are being forced to work in makeshift COVID units despite their desire to stay away from it due to underlying conditions. Her unvaccinated co-worker's father in his early 50s died yesterday after contracting it only a few days earlier. Every day my Facebook feed is filled with people mourning the loss of someone who has died in the hospital from COVID after not being vaccinated. Things were going well in Jax until about three weeks ago; now the local economy is grinding to a halt again because HALF of the city's residents decided not to get the vaccine and the Delta variant is in full swing.

      The wait time for an ambulance is at times over two hours because they are spread too thin responding to unvaccinated people needing hospitalization from COVID. God forbid you need an ambulance for something non-preventable...

      • peterepete

        Ok I can’t let this nonsense go unchallenged. I also live in Jacksonville, FL & almost everything you say is completely false. The hospitals are not even close to being overrun. Not by any measure. Wonder how I know that? Well because I work in Baptist right downtown in Radiology. So try again. I can’t speak to your Facebook feed but if you’re gonna claim our local headlines are overrun with deaths again not even remotely true. The local economy isn’t grinding to a halt either. You’re just flat out lying. I swear democrats won local elections here & now everything is going to hell according to you people. If you find it so miserable here why do you stay? This city has been the jewel of North Florida for decades but now just in the last 6 months we’re at the precipice of hell? And all because of covid? Wrong!

        I offer this challenge to you. We have a rising homeless population here. If indeed you are local then you know where the primary shelter is right downtown. A small tent city forms there nightly & almost every weekend. It seems to grow weekly to encompass more of the surrounding city blocks. Care to tell us just why there isn’t a mad dash to vaccinate the homeless there? Perhaps explain why there hasn’t been a mass death event among them as they don’t social distance or wear masks much less engage in any kind of vaccine program?

        And before anybody jumps in yes I work in healthcare & I’m vaccinated. No issues with vaccines & I believe all should get one. But I’m not going to sit & read a pack of lies about my home city on here. Things are nowhere near as dire or out of control as this person claims.

      • christophercollins

        I feel for your wife.

        I live in a 'neighboring' state with plenty of misinformation as well. My second shot was in March (as soon as it was 'legally available for me). My daughter has had 1 and the next in 20ish days.

        What's happening in Florida is absolutely crazy. The fact the the Governor is threatening K-12 funds if the have a mask mandate is unreal.

        I have come to a sad (very sad) conclusion that many of the 'no vaccine' crowd are going to have to die off. I just wonder how many innoncents they will take with them.

        1 person with Delta infects and average of 8 others.

        I know I can still get it with my vaccine, but i also know it's unlikely that I'll see a hospital or a casket from it.

        Hero's like your wife probably already have PTSD from the last year. I hope her mental health remains well during this second run in Florida.

        God bless!

      • lvthunder

        So the news should be going through there scaring everyone to go get the shot. Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do isn't the answer. Ask any teenager. Doing the hard work of changing people's minds is the best approach.

        • bluvg

          I'm split on this and partly agree with you, but the analogy to teenagers is probably not helpful to the point you're making. Sometimes--even often--teenagers have to be forced to do something they don't want to do, for their own good and the good of others around them. After all, the world revolves around them, and they are always right. ?

        • remc86007

          That strategy hasn't worked. The anti-vax crowd is largely also the "fake news" crowd. There are constantly people posting previously taken pictures of the insides of empty hospital wings on local forums saying that it proves the whole thing is a hoax, when in reality, the COVID wings have people spilling out into the hallways. Why people are so deadest on spreading misinformation is a mystery to me, but it is happening.

          • crunchyfrog

            I think it is unhelpful to call people the "Anti-Vax crowd" when in reality they are not against vaccines, only this one in particular. If people feel like they are being subjugated into this particular vaccine then they will push back. The more that they feel like they are losing control in the decision process, the harder they will push back.

            Perhaps the government, media and big business should take a better tact on this so that people feel like they are making their own rational decision instead of spreading fear and making threats.

            • bluvg

              The stats are not optimistic in this regard. About 1/3 of the "Anti-Vax crowd" report they are open to changing their minds, but the rest say no way, no how. It's an unfalsifiable belief, which is inherently irrational. Part of the problem is the source of info: a constant stream of crap that is selling (yes, most definitely selling) a story that they are "being subjugated" and threatened. Outside of that bubble, that just hasn't been the reality of the message, by either government or businesses--they've been doing everything they can to encourage. But these folks just aren't listening to that source, they're listening to a stream of crap that serves to line the pockets and fuel the political ambitions of the ones spreading it.

              Interestingly, many that hold this point of view are also very pro-business and the right of businesses to conduct their businesses as they wish... but now that businesses are asserting that, guess they're not so pro-business.

              • karlinhigh

                I've been in discussions with skeptics of Genetically Modified Organisms in food. (I am not particularly a GMO proponent, I think things like the Glo-Fish are terrible own-goal ideas for the pro-GMO cause.) It is hard to find a study saying GMOs are safe that these folks won't auto-dismiss as being hopelessly compromised by Monsanto money. Even (or especially) stuff from the US Dept of Agriculture. They say "follow the money," Monsanto is funding the USDA's work. I tried following the money. It's a fool's errand. So many nonprofits and foundations and subsidiary companies, only a corporate lawyer would have any hope of sorting it out. (And then they'd be distrusted for being a corporate lawyer.) I got the impression that some anti-GMO folks wouldn't accept a study saying GMOs are safe unless it came from Greenpeace itself. Or who knows, maybe they would then stop trusting Greenpeace.

                I think lots of these dynamics are the same for the mRNA vaccine topic.

                • waethorn

                  So Monsanto settled several cases out of court and then sold themselves off to another Pharma company, with Bayer facing another 30,000+ cancer claims and promising to remove it from the market by 2023 because they couldn't prove themselves innocent... that's a pretty messed up view of a legal defence right there.

                • waethorn

                  Whether GMO’s are safe or not is not the issue: it’s that Monsanto made GMO’s to sell RoundUp, known to be more carcinogenic than smoking a carton of asbestos cigarettes every day.

                  Now tell me how a multibillion dollar chemical company can make genetic changes to an organism to sell a bunch of hazardous chemicals for human consumption while eliminating competition is generally accepted as true, but how a genetic virus research lab designing a virus to force the purchase of vaccines isn’t plausible….as you say: follow the money.

                • karlinhigh

                  RoundUp, known to be more carcinogenic

                  For people living in farm country, though, those would be near-fighting-words for some of their neighbors. Many mainstream ag professionals would see skepticism towards glyphosate the Roundup ingredient the same way as most mainstream medical pros see skepticism towards vaccines. Sure, the activists claim science and data to support their position. Because of course they do.


          • lvthunder

            That strategy has barely been tried. Or at least here in Las Vegas. I look at the local news sites here every day to track the numbers. I don't see stories of overflowing hospitals (I don't think it's that bad here) or interviews with real practicing doctors or nurses saying how bad things are.

          • karlinhigh

            Why people are so deadset on spreading misinformation is a mystery to me, but it is happening.

            Acting out their rejection of a narrative.

            Lots of people who get the most excited about "questioning" and "deconstructing" everything usually have some favorite ideas or institutions that they want protected from this.

            Trouble is, it ends up like Madame DeFarge in Charles Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities." He had her saying, when someone suggested that this French Revolution Reign of Terror thing might be going too far, "Tell the wind and the fire when to stop, but don't tell me!"

            • bluvg

              Love the Dickens reference! Brilliant (like he was)!

              That counter-narrative component of the recalcitrant ant-vaxxers is so fused with this, and it's one of the conspiracies the conspiracy theorists aren't interested in investigating is the money and power gained by those spreading these conspiracies.

              There was an interesting comment in a recent interview of Stewart Copeland (drummer for The Police) about Sting:

              “I’ve discovered a trait of great poets. I only know a few, Sting being one of them. At the dinner table, you can flatten him with an argument. ...but he’ll go back to his hotel room and land on three words that destroy all argument...

              “We had arguments about the Cold War, which was going on at the time. The best example is, he came up with the line, ‘But the Russians love their children too’.... You can’t argue with a poet.”

              Fighting that well-funded, corrosively-intentioned counter-narrative... we could really use a Dickens. We could really use a poet.

              • karlinhigh

                Hey, maybe Scott Alexander's "Prospiracy Theories."


                • bluvg

                  Ha! Those are great. I wondered sometimes if a message like, "please, PLEASE don't get vaccinated, it will reduce the number of voters that share your view" might redirect some of that groupthink-hatred and spur some to get vaccinated, but...

  14. navarac

    I personally think agree that people should be vaccinated, BUT I also feel that it amounts to assault/battery to compel vaccination and possibly also becomes grounds for suing for constructive dismissal.

    In the UK, the government has stated that companies may not compel or insist on vaccination, so the likes of Netflix and Amazon do not have the option of insisting on vaccination. Dodgy grounds, I reckon lawyers will make money over this issue.

    • dougkinzinger

      Big fan of vaccines but not a big fan of employers removing individual's choice(s).

    • waethorn

      In Australia, police are literally committing assault and battery to force people to get the jab.

      • boots

        Well that's not happening.

        You are either making this crap up because you want stupid people to believe it and repeat it, or someone else has succeeded in doing that.

      • IanYates82

        Umm, no. Share that link please?

        Our problem in Australia is supply. People want it and can't get it. That's shifting now, finally

        We have had plenty of AstraZenica vaccine as we can make it locally, but it was originally strongly advised for only over 50, then over 60 years of age.

        We've had more lockdown again (as of today just over 60% of the country is in lockdown - compared to a couple of months back when everywhere was open sigh roughly zero covid). That has resulted in the risk calculation changing and AZ is now encouraged to younger people too

        But there's still not enough to satisfy people who want a vaccine. There's no need to be compelling people.

        Do you *really* think police are forcing people to be vaccinated? Really? Cmon, be smarter. Do you even live here?

      • ebraiter

        I'd like to see a link on this.....

        • waethorn

          Plenty of videos on Bitchute. YouTube just censors them... "for your safety".

          • sydney2k

            Uh, that is not happening here. Not at all. If what your saying is the case, then this would be all over the local news. In fact, people are rushing in to get the vaccine. Some of our bigger cities are under lockdown at the moment, and the message is that if we don't want more and longer lockdowns, vaccination of the majority of the people is the key.

            Yes, I am living in Australia right now.

    • hrlngrv

      Perhaps leave vaccination a personal choice, but declare an employer's premises only open to the vaccinated. Allow employees who refuse to be vaccinated to work remotely if there are available positions which allow for remote work.

      What's your position on mandatory testing of the unvaccinated? A cotton swab shoved up your nose a few times a week OK but 2 shots assault & battery?

    • jim_vernon

      I'm not sure you understand what the words "assault" or "battery" mean.

      • wright_is

        It is recommended here (Germany), to get vaccinated, but it is not a legal requirement.

        Forcing somebody to get vaccinated would be treated as the equivalent of assault or actual bodily harm, I believe. So employers can strongly recommend employees get vaccinated, but they can't force them to and they can't threaten them with sanctions. But, for example, a nurse or care person who refuses to get vaccinated might be excluded from certain wards or any patient contact, E.g. administrative duties.

        That said, privately owned buildings (residential, shops, offices etc.) are within their "house rights" to insist on any visitors being vaccinated, before they can enter the building - the visitor has a choice, get vaccinated or go elsewhere, so they aren't being coerced into getting vaccinated. But they can't extend that to their employees.

      • navarac

        I do, and therefore used the words, mate.

        • cavalier_eternal

          You could call it a unicorn dance party or anything else but In the U.S. assault and battery have legal definitions and this doesn’t constitute assault and battery.

          • karlinhigh

            Not a lawyer, no idea about USA legal definitions of assault and battery.

            There is a Supreme Court case though about a Navy veteran that had a surgery done to him after withdrawing his consent.


            CTRL+F battery finds 26 mentions.

            For a more general audience:


            There's a hilarious side story there where the fellow was operating pro se, without an attorney, and the Supreme Court reached out to take his case. Suddenly every top law firm in the country wanted to represent him, for prestige rather than money. He played them off each other, can you mow my yard, can you help me get my book published, etc. Finally the Supreme Court got tired of it and appointed an attorney for him. Just like that, all the attention from top law firms went away.

            • cavalier_eternal

              It feels silly pointing this out but an employer requiring a vaccine is no way comparable to performing surgery without consent.

              What’s funny about bringing up the Navy is they actually require vaccines. Since requiring vaccines is the exact subject we are talking about there is no need to search for something analogous. Better yet, this has been litigated so go ahead and do that research and let me know what you find. Spoiler alert, it’s legal.

  15. blue77star

    The difference between Conspiracy theory and fact is 6 months.

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