Impact of the M1 chip on Windows and PCs

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152

I’ve seen a lot of reviews and benchmarks that show that the M1 chip outperforms even Intel Core i9 and Ryzen 9 chips. Just wondering about what this means long-term for the x86-64 platform and for Windows. There are four possible options, if you were looking to buy a new PC, as I was:

  1. Buy a new PC now
  2. Buy a Mac
  3. Wait till next year to see what Microsoft and its partners have in store (I doubt it’ll be anything exciting) or
  4. Wait for the next iteration of the M1 chip to to come out next year.

In any case, this seems like a BFD.

Comments (156)

156 responses to “Impact of the M1 chip on Windows and PCs”

  1. Avatar

    wright_is

    It doesn't change anything to start with. Until it can run all legacy windows x86 software, it is useless for Windows users.

    Even WoS can't do a good job. Performance is nothing if it can't do what you need.

    A dragster might be fast in a straight line, but if you are on a rally stage, it is useless.

    If you are a mac user with all mac software, great, if your are a Windows user with all legacy software, it is a non starter.

    Hopefully AMD can extend their performance lead and Intel can start to get its act together.

    I like ARM, but for users stuck with legacy Windows software, there is no real alternative.

    • Avatar

      waethorn

      In reply to wright_is:

      This is pretty short-sighted. People adopted iPads to use as their main computer-y thing without needing Windows software. If a company is adept, they can port their data over to another platform when another choice in software is available on it. Governments seemingly do this all the time, switching from Windows to Mac to Linux and back again when their IT consultants figure out how portable or convertible their data is. And then there's also VDI.

      • Avatar

        darkgrayknight

        In reply to Waethorn:

        Reality always gets in the way of the governments that convert to another whole system. This doesn't really work out and rarely happens across an entire government office (unless the office is small). Most governments have lots of software that is custom built and will only run for sure on a small set of options (like IE for the USDA for at least some of its software -- that leaves out a lot of other operating systems). The stories that we hear of governments changing to Windows or Linux are usually only some small set of offices and half the time they revert back a couple years later due to something not working with the new OS.

        • Avatar

          waethorn

          In reply to darkgrayknight:

          It's less to do with that, more to do with contracts only lasting 2-3 years and some other company coming along to undercut the pre-existing contract. It also depends on the recommendations of the current IT consultant. Most will want to see a complete change because it's good money for doing the transition.

          • Avatar

            jchampeau

            In reply to Waethorn:

            It may be the case that all of the politicians in the Canada House of Commons are using iPads, but likely most if not all of the people who do the behind-the-scenes work for that body need real computers. Whether it's the maintenance people for the building in which they meet who have no choice but to use vendor-provided building management software that runs on Windows or the research team who needs large screens to view and manipulate historical data or the IT team who needs to console into the odd switch with a serial cable or the A/V integrator using a Windows app to program a DSP or the campus police who need to run security camera software to keep watch or change views on a wall array, there are many, many times when using a device designed for content consumption just won't cut it.

            • Avatar

              waethorn

              In reply to jchampeau:

              You're talking about other companies. Being a public service, there is no "government IT" that is managed by the government. The government outsources IT services, usually to overpriced consultants and maintainers, only until the next election cycle. It's IT done by the budget numbers, so long as the finance minister approves it, and the consulting company can justify spending billions in changeovers if they can show that it'll save money (even if it's a lie - and c'mon, gov't consultants always do).

              • Avatar

                jchampeau

                In reply to Waethorn:

                The original post asked what the M1 means long-term for Intel and the x86-64 platform. Wright_is correctly pointed out that it means nothing for now and that users using legacy Windows software (like those in my examples and millions of others) have no real alternatives. Then you chime in with your obnoxious blabbering about his comments being short-sighted and speak about ERP solutions as though you know what you're talking about. Let's see you file an expense report on Oracle Financials iExpense and then tell me it's the same on an iPad as it is on a computer. I can tell you with certainty that it isn't because I've done it both ways. I only tried it once on my 2019 iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard--even with a mouse and keyboard, it was a horrendous experience and I couldn't upload PDF copies of my receipts. Sod off, will you.

                • Avatar

                  waethorn

                  In reply to jchampeau:

                  Is iExpense not a web app? An M1 Mac still is not a Windows PC, and it isn't Intel. If an employee needs a proper laptop, an M1 Mac is still as viable an option as anything else. You don't need Windows for that, but quite possibly, the consultant advising the company might look at a computer form factor that's simpler to manage, so they might recommend a Chromebook because it's just a glorified web browser. House MP's don't file their own expenses - they have office minions to do that for them. Do you actually think that computer consultants just recommend the same computing device for every employee on the job? Wow.


                  And no, just because you don't like my opinion doesn't mean you can tell me to F* off. That's called fascism, in case you didn't know.

      • Avatar

        wright_is

        In reply to Waethorn:

        80% of the software I have to use on a daily basis is Windows x86 only, 15% has x64 equivalent and 5% won't run on Windows 10 and needs Windows XP or Windows 7.

        For most home users, the transfer to ARM wouldn't be too bad, as long as they can find equivalent tools that run on ARM - whether that be Windows, macOS or Linux.

        For business, you are stuck with what is available, and, as I've related before, if you can't get a hardware supplier to provide Windows 10 compatible software for X86/x64 without forking out 6-digits for new measuring equipment or 7-digits for a new production facility, you just aren't going to upgrade.

        And, as long as the Intel/AMD processors are "fast enough" for Office and the ERP solution, most companies won't start splitting up their workforce into ARM and x86 users, they want everyone on the same platform to minimize costs and support issues.

        • Avatar

          lvthunder

          In reply to wright_is:

          From a users perspective you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an Intel Mac and a M1 Mac if the software works like it is supposed to. Time will tell on that though. As for enterprises it will all depend on what technology that specific enterprise uses. In our office all of our equipment just plugs into the network and runs whatever in the machines firmware (it's all printers). So as long as the print driver works we can run whatever. Our new copy machines even print from mobile devices without a special app or driver.

        • Avatar

          waethorn

          In reply to wright_is:

          Many ERP solutions are just web apps now so it'll work on anything. The consulting division of IBM now recommends Macs to their clients and about half of their employees use them. The other half is using Lenovo gear with that further divided between Linux and Windows 10.

          • Avatar

            shark47

            In reply to Waethorn:

            I may be wrong, but I haven't seen iPad Pros take off in the enterprise space. We provide them to our execs, but overall, it's difficult to get work done on such small screens. The problem with M1 MacBook Airs is they only support one monitor, so you really need MacBook Pros, at which point it really doesn't make much of a difference.

    • Avatar

      Greg Green

      In reply to wright_is:

      It doesn’t need to run all legacy software, it just needs to run the software you need. That will be different for each person. Bottom tier apple PCs now beat mid level x86 PCs, and almost reach top tier levels.

  2. Avatar

    anoldamigauser

    In reply to lvthunder:

    Agree 100%. The work from home move is going to force software to the cloud, whether it is the vendor, like BIM360, or firms moving this type of software to virtual desktops. Considering all the different moving parts and parties in a construction project, it certainly makes sense to move to a single source of truth in the cloud.

    Corporate policy for us is to VPN in and then connect to our desktop machine in the office and from there to local or cloud resources. Sort of roundabout, but whatever.

    • Avatar

      wright_is

      In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:

      We are moving to more and more terminal servers, with people working from home.

      They take company laptops with them, but they use RDP to access the services they need.

      Some countries and some branches of business preclude a move to the cloud.

      With the collapse of Privacy Shiel, for example, it is now quasi-illegal to use Microsoft 365, Azure, AWS, Google Cloud, Oracle, Salesforce etc. in Europe, because they cannot hold the data in compliance with GDPR.

      I've just finished moving my private data from OneDrive to HiDrive, which is a 100% European cloud solution.

    • Avatar

      james.h.robinson

      In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:

      But moving software to the cloud and virtual desktops will make the Mac an even less appealing options for some people. After all, if your VM is in the cloud, why do you need to spend $1,000+ on a Mac when you can access the same VM from a Chromebook?

  3. Avatar

    kyriakos

    What's important to understand is that Apple is happy to get rid of legacy and switch to a new platform whereas Windows user base uses a lot of legacy software making a platform transition extremely hard. On the other hand, Apple's Rosetta seems to be doing extremely well at emulating x64 on ARM while Microsoft is still stuck on 32bit emulation and comparably it doesn't perform as well as Apple's solution.

  4. Avatar

    SAPaleAle

    As a business we would not consider Apple based purely on not wanting to be tied to a single company and having to deal with their design decisions. We use hardware with a multitude of specs and brands(including industrial laptops) and with Windows/Linux we have this. I wont consider Apple for home as I build my own PC and haven't purchased a complete PC since the late 90s I just update components as needed and as with the business never want to be locked to one company for hardware

    • Avatar

      curtisspendlove

      In reply to SAPaleAle:

      As a business we would not consider Apple based purely on not wanting to be tied to a single company and having to deal with their design decisions.


      This is one way of looking at things. Another way is considering the cost of personnel (man-hours) is far higher than any “apple-tax”.


      Having a small support staff that specializes in a single (or small set of) hardware often saves far more money in the long run.


      Apple’s warranty / service is also a huge boon for businesses. Especially if you have an Apple store nearby (at least back in the “before” days when a quick trip to the Store) got you back up and running (if you even had to go, which you usually didn’t).

      • Avatar

        wright_is

        In reply to curtisspendlove:

        What do you consider a small number of staff? We are around 300 employees and we have 4 people doing IT management and helpdesk. We are Windows only and I would guess that maintaining Windows PCs is around an hour a month for one employee (WSUS updates).

        Actual problems with Windows PCs, probably about 2% of our time.

        Application support around 30%. The rest is server configuration and writing new reports for the ERP system, changing forms to meet new legal requirements etc. and rolling out new equipment to users.

        The biggest hassle are the constant changes in the Microsoft Office UI - Microsoft keep moving things around of late, like the search bar in Outlook moved from being at the top of the list you are searching to being in the title bar of the window. That foxed a lot of users. Teams is even worse, you just finish writing a user manual and doing the training course and by the time you have set up the next bunch of users, you are back to square one and have to learn a new interface.

        And that is a problem with a lot of users, they learn where to click, not what they are clicking on. They aren't interested in IT and just want to do their job. Start mucking around with the UI and they are totally lost! Remove IE and make Edge the default and "the Internet is broken", even though their PC has had Edge, Chrome and Firefox on it for the last 5 years.

        • Avatar

          james.h.robinson

          In reply to wright_is:

          Also, Windows 10 has been around for 5 years and the UX is similar to Windows 95 from 25 years ago. I'm pretty sure most employees are familiar with the Windows UX. If anything, it would be a bigger hassle getting those employees to switch over to MacOS, which they are most likely not familiar with.


          I usually deal with enterprises, large organizations with hundreds (if not thousands) of employees. Also though some of those enterprises allow Macs, they actually run their businesses on Linux and Windows. After years of resisting, I have accepted that MacOS is a relative niche product in the "real world."

        • Avatar

          curtisspendlove

          In reply to wright_is:

          What do you consider a small number of staff? We are around 300 employees and we have 4 people doing IT management and helpdesk.


          That’s pretty close to the ratios I’ve worked in.


          The company I work for now is an SMB of about 400 with an IT staff of about 5. We do a few things, but I work in “Commercial Services” (we also do government services and a few other things).


          I’m a project manager (software delivery manager) and work with IT when needed. My teams are very technical (mostly developers and DevOps) so we don’t need much support.


          But there is a whole gamut including a phone-based call center (we run a call center system in house with all the telephony servers, etc). So IT has a *lot* to do.


          aI don’t know exactly what their support surface looks like but I’d imagine it’s similar to yours. (Minus the heavy machinery stuff that it sounds like you work with).


          Most of what I see coming from IT is “soft” support related, not “hard”. There’s a constant stream of “seriously guys, the CEO isn’t asking you to get a gift card for the secretary” and other scam/spam/phishing, “here’s the new way to change your password”, “the phone systems are down, you’ll get updates as we work on resolution”, etc.


          I chat with IT a bit and they don’t seem to have too many actual hardware issues.


          But that is part of my point.


          The job I had before this was with a Fintech SaaS startup. They had VC style funding so money wasn’t really an object.


          Everyone had Macs except the call floor who had Chromeboxes / Chromebooks.


          We wrote what they needed into the webapp so we didn’t need any kind of custom software.


          I was kinda a DevOps / development team liaison in that company. So I worked closely with the dev and IT teams.


          It was very similar. It was mostly soft support and a *bunch* of AWS (as opposed to on-prem).


          Hardware issues were uncommon and when they happened it was usually “take it to the Apple store” and config a new (temp, possibly) system for the person. (That system would either come back or not.)


          Refardless, the person was back up and running in about 30m. It didn’t happen that often, but a couple time I said “whelp! Early lunch today” :: shrug ::


          My overall point is that people are generally creative. It’s pretty easy to figure out a process that works well.


          Person-hour downtime is what costs a lot of money. In that place the salary of the person with the downtime quickly approached the cost of a Mac if they were down for days.


          Potential lost revenue was far more expensive also, depending on the problem.


          I think we, as tech enthusiasts, like to argue about this stuff because it is fun. It is our specialty that allows us to participate in the tribal patterns of our caveman ancestors.


          But in the end it doesn’t matter much. All options are valid for a given organization. One of my favorite dudes there was a certified Microsoft Systme Engineer (don’t remember what the actual, exact title was).


          It pained him greatly that his expertise was essentially Boot Camp or Parallels for running Windows on Mac for the few people (mostly in Sales) who wanted Windows.


          I actually thought that was pretty silly, but all the automation at the time existed to bring up Macs into a Google-centric org (they used GAS instead of O365, etc).


          I know people on this site don’t like to hear it, but there are perfectly valid combinations of IT to support a business without a single ounce of Microsoft running.


          :: shrug ::


          I, personally, don’t think that happens very often, nor is it very practical.


          But I also think that a company with the best overall morale is one where people can pick their tech. That isn’t always super feasible. But if a person hates the systems they have to run every day their motivation for getting crap done is purely financial. And that isn’t the attitude you want in your employees.

          • Avatar

            wright_is

            In reply to curtisspendlove:

            I agree with you for the most part.

            Or users are non technical and couldn't copy a file or connect a monitor to a pc.

            We sent it headsets and cameras for the users to attach to their PCs, so they could use Teams. Many of them called up, because they couldn't plug a USB cable into a USB socket!

            That was probably the biggest support sink hole this year.

            The one benefit of that is that they call us, when they get spam or Phishing emails. I'd rather check 10 emails a day than have to deal with one crypto virus.

            • Avatar

              curtisspendlove

              In reply to wright_is:

              Many of them called up, because they couldn't plug a USB cable into a USB socket!


              Heh. Yeah. Gotta love users. Though to be fair to most muggles I think the “terror” aspect kicks in a bit, especially when dealing with company hardware.


              No one wants to be “that guy” or “that gal” who blew up a $500 monitor (or whatever) because they did something wrong.


              One of IT’s most important functions has always been, and will ever be holding hands and making things better.


              I commonly empathize and it generally makes people feel better. (“Yeah...no worries! You know I have to call in to reset my password sometimes too. You’d think a programmer would never forget, but the older I get the less I remember.”)


              Our IT has an “if in doubt don’t click anything and forward it to the tickets email” policy. Our people seem pretty good at avoiding most attempts nowadays. But man, the spammers and phishers are getting pretty sophisticated nowadays. Very clever.

  5. Avatar

    VancouverNinja

    Nothing.


    Apple OS's just can't compare to Windows 10. And driving Mobile apps backwards to PC's is another massive mistake e.g. "Mobile First" which derailed productivity by a decade. Current Mac owners will be excited at first and then realize they just have another expensive Mac.


    The further Apple goes towards being on an island all by itself they will virtually guarantee they always have a market share of 10% or less. Let alone how bonkers their Mac OS is.

    • Avatar

      bkkcanuck

      In reply to VancouverNinja:

      "Apple OS's just can't compare to Windows 10."


      Really, maybe you can enlighten us by expanding on your hyperbole?


      "And driving Mobile apps backwards to PC's is another massive mistake e.g. "Mobile First" which derailed productivity by a decade."


      So you must hate the Microsoft Surface machines... "Mobile First" I take as applications that have been written for only a touch user interface (no keyboard etc.). But then Apple is not encouraging "Mobile First" applications on the Mac, it is only a first step on developing universal apps for iPadOS and macOS - with the UI customized depending on the machine you are running on it. i.e. on a Mac it should be implemented using Mac user interface guidelines and on the iPadOS it should be implemented using iPadOS user interface guidelines. The problem with Windows and it setting things back by about a generation or two is the fact that the people designing it were literally trying to make the UI the same for both without regards to delivering the best interface for each use case. Apple tends to have much more thorough approach to focusing on how the majority of users use their devices. So just because Microsoft put the wrong people in charge does not mean supporting a spectrum of devices is not a bad idea... just the implementation failed horribly...


      "Current Mac owners will be excited at first and then realize they just have another expensive Mac."


      And yet, the Macs will have more performance for the same or less price than before. When you make the processor more performant while generating less heat - and at significantly less cost - you can use that extra thermal headroom for adding more specialized silicon on the high-end giving you more performance for the tasks that need it, and also delivering significant performance improvements at the bottom of the line. So we will have to disagree on this. (though your post seemed more like a troll post, I decided I would answer it as though it was not).


      • Avatar

        VancouverNinja

        In reply to bkkcanuck:

        Simple Windows 10 is more user friendly and more flexible than MacOS. Someone, I believe wright_is, touched on the fact that Apple restricts access to features by hiding them. Most recently I had to help an very frustrated user with a new iMac figure out how to get access to their true screen resolution settings that Apple purposefully hides. I am not down with the dated 90's mantra that Apple MacOS is superior - it is in fact not as well designed as Windows 10 - not by a country mile.


        You are clearly out of touch how manipulative Apple has been to it's users by ignoring touchscreens on its PCs to favor iPads. Pathetic is all I can say when it comes to this backwards and stifling approach that has been foisted upon their users all while making them pay a premium price for less flexibility in their products.


        Oh yes this amazing crazy speed improvement is a nice sales pitch - but this is not going to launch Apple pcs out of their single digit market share. After almost 40 years Apples pc market share is under 10% as the world as a whole prefers windows on a busines and personal level. I am sorry if this does not jive with your outlook on Apple but it is the bottom line on Apple's value proposition to consumers and business.

        • Avatar

          bkkcanuck

          In reply to VancouverNinja:

          "Simple Windows 10 is more user friendly and more flexible than MacOS. Someone, I believe wright_is, touched on the fact that Apple restricts access to features by hiding them. Most recently I had to help an very frustrated user with a new iMac figure out how to get access to their true screen resolution settings that Apple purposefully hides. I am not down with the dated 90's mantra that Apple MacOS is superior - it is in fact not as well designed as Windows 10 - not by a country mile."


          I have no problem finding scaling under macOS, but then a couple days ago I had a massive slowdown on the network to a specific site and I guessed it was for some reason using IPv6 to traverse to that site.... but it was a slow route... I decided to see if I turned off IPv6 and see what the speed was.... it took me a good 10 to 15 minutes to find it. I went to network, figured there would be a TCP/IP option somewhere there - bunch of sliders but nothing to do with turning IPv6 off.... so that must make Windows 10 not user friendly by that one example.


          Let us not talk about Windows implementation of HDR and scaling in regards to 4K - that is horrific.


          BTW, I use Windows and Linux as well as macOS (macOS is superior for my use cases). I bought my first Mac in 2007 - probably around the same time as I retired my Sun Sparcstation.


          As far as Apple being manipulative - yes in a way, but not really in the way you are thinking. Apple will have an idea of what they want to do with their OS about 5+ years in advance (which you will not be privy too), they will then figure out what they have to add, what they have to retire in a way that makes it not so painful and it will be reasonably well supported once they release the new devices and the OS that runs on them. Up until that point they will deny that they will ever add a feature for the simple reason there is no firm timeline just a roadmap and it would just add confusion to the marketplace. In other words, they may very well add touch -- but only when everything aligns and it will be well supported and not a half implementation that is a poor implementation. Microsoft on the other hand seems to act reactively, sort of panic, hack it in and then release it before it is ready.

          • Avatar

            VancouverNinja

            In reply to bkkcanuck:


            "I have no problem finding scaling under macOS"


            Yes you can find scaling as three basic radio button options that keeps the user below the 5k resolution of the iMac - but you cannot get to the list of resolutions without a special keypress while clicking on a button - a real kinda secret series of events to enact the list. It is purposefully hid from the user and it's just not cool.


            As for your network settings they are not hidden you just did not go to the right spot in your network settings. This is very different than hiding features from users.


            We have several iMacs that were bought in the last few years that cannot run Netflix 4k....massive fail again on a $2000 5k system that can't play 4k Netflix streaming content - no big for us as a business but ouch for the 000's of consumers that got a massive sucker punch.


            Scaling 4k is an issue in Windows 10??? I am sitting with two 32 inch 1080p touchscreen monitors with a Surface Studio and can seamlessly move windows between the screens and they resize perfectly each time. I am about to add Dell 4k's into the mix for dev reasons.


            Scaling is horrible in Apple once you get to external screens - we have a few GDs with 32" wacoms and how Apple works between them is simply awkward. Windows wins on scaling vs Mac pcs hands down.


            Listen some of your comments may have had an inkling of validity years ago but not now - Apple has fallen behind on the OS for their pcs; and retrofitting it to more resemble their mobile os platforms is a faceplant in my opinion.


            I think the future is strongly with Windows 10 PCs be it intel, Arm, or devices like Surface Duo and Neo. MS has got their act together when it comes to unifying what users need to be truly productive. Apple is the odd bird out for not wanting to be open and continue to be restrictive. That approach will always limit their growth potential.


            As for all of the faux hardships rained down on users by the malfeasance of MS - we just don't see it. Oh yeah don't forget the elections were rigged....LOL.

            • Avatar

              shameer_mulji

              In reply to VancouverNinja:

              "MS has got their act together when it comes to unifying what users need to be truly productive. "


              When it comes to mobile devices (ie: Neo and Duo), MS is still flailing in the wind and the Neo & Duo still have a long way to go to prove themselves. Wake me up when they actually make a dent.

          • Avatar

            wright_is

            In reply to bkkcanuck:
            Let us not talk about Windows implementation of HDR and scaling in regards to 4K - that is horrific.

            I'm interested, I've been using a 4K 13" Spectre X360 since 2016 and I've not had any problems with scaling. Could you be more explicit?

            There were a couple of applications that didn't use the Windows APIs and therefore didn't automatically scale, but they are few and far between these days.

            As far as Apple being manipulative - yes in a way, but not really in the way you are thinking.

            I was thinking about the problems with LittleSnitch on BigSur, it can't actually monitor and block kernel level services any more. Apple knows best, you want to block a service, tough.

            Yes, I can still block it at the firewall, but that doesn't help on a MacBook that is being used in other networks. I don't get access to their firewalls to put in the relevant blocks.

            But I agree, Vancouver goes too far. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with macOS for most users and, depending on what you use regularly, you can be more productive on one than the other.

            • Avatar

              bkkcanuck

              In reply to wright_is:

              "I'm interested, I've been using a 4K 13" Spectre X360 since 2016 and I've not had any problems with scaling. Could you be more explicit?

              There were a couple of applications that didn't use the Windows APIs and therefore didn't automatically scale, but they are few and far between these days."


              It is less of a problem these days, but I still have quite a few applications that don't scale (I think the bulk of them are java swing based). It is also less of a problem since I changed all my monitors to be the same make and model with the same size and resolution. Never had a problem with a mini sized app on macOS.


              Applications that relied on kernel extensions have to be updated to use the appropriate framework (this transition has been in progress for a couple of years). Little Snitch 5 (according to there website) now uses Network Extension framework -- have you upgraded?

              The kext (kernel extensions) were a significant security issue and the removal of it in favour of frameworks should continue to move the OS security forward. The short term of course with any new OS release is that there are possibilities there are shortcomings in the frameworks that are used. The macOS system volume now resides on a read-only cryptographically sealed volume, which should be a significant improvement in security.


        • Avatar

          shameer_mulji

          In reply to VancouverNinja:

          "You are clearly out of touch how manipulative Apple has been to it's users by ignoring touchscreens on its PCs to favor iPads."


          Pure hyperbole. Nothing manipulative about it all. It's a purely business and philosophical decision. They've been upfront about it from the beginning.


          "After almost 40 years Apples pc market share is under 10% as the world as a whole prefers windows on a busines and personal level"


          Those market share numbers are based solely on new sales. They don't take into account the growing user base of Mac users which stands at around 100+ million users - Double what it was a decade ago. So in terms of overall number of users, the Mac market is growing

    • Avatar

      curtisspendlove

      In reply to VancouverNinja:

      Apple OS's just can't compare to Windows 10.

      Opinion is an opinion. :: shrug ::

      • Avatar

        wright_is

        In reply to curtisspendlove:

        Yes, I don't like some of the decisions Apple have made with macOS over the years, especially the increased nannying over time - it is my machine, so I should have control over what it does, not Apple - but that doesn't stop macOS being a great OS for general users.

        • Avatar

          curtisspendlove

          In reply to wright_is:

          Yes, I don't like some of the decisions Apple have made with macOS over the years, especially the increased nannying over time - it is my machine, so I should have control over what it does, not Apple


          Agreed. I have things I don’t like about the “improvement” of macOS. But I’m a picky bastard, so I have a list of things that annoy me about all the stuff I use in my life, including Windows and Linux.


          But that doesn’t stop me from using them and enjoying them overall.


          And the fact remains that I just get way more work done on macOS than either Linux or Windows.


          But that, also, is an opinion and personal fact. It won’t pertain to everyone.

        • Avatar

          VancouverNinja

          In reply to wright_is:

          This is fair comment - not sure I would call it great but yeah it works for general users, but then again doesn't a Chromebook as well? ;-)

      • Avatar

        VancouverNinja

        In reply to curtisspendlove:


        Curtis,


        Just Ben Franklin the features of both - it's not opinion its a fact. If someone is used to using a particular interface so be it - but MacOS suffers greatly to those that can do an unbiased review of the two OSs.

      • Avatar

        james.h.robinson

        In reply to curtisspendlove:

        Market share wise, this is not an opinion but a verifiable fact.

        • Avatar

          curtisspendlove

          In reply to james.h.robinson:

          Market share wise, this is not an opinion but a verifiable fact.


          Meh.


          If we go by “market share” to determine what is “better” then the Honda Civic is an exponentially better vehicle than a Tesla Model X or a Lamborghini Aventador S.


          “Better” is a subjective measurement, not an objective one. Therefore: opinion.


          Some may not believe my productivity is nearly double on a Mac vs a PC. But that’s subjective, and for those people the reverse is likely true.


          Two subjective factors:


          • I have a large set of custom and 3rd party tools that speed up my use on my Macs for my daily and weekly tasks.
          • I *like* my Macs far more than I like my PCs.


          (I also have some of that ported to Linux and like Linux far more than Windows. So I’m faster / more productive on Linux than I am on Windows as well, but not as fast as on my Macs.)


          :: shrug :: This is just how skill sets and personal preference work.

    • Avatar

      Greg Green

      In reply to VancouverNinja:

      The iPhone was Steve Balmer’s moment. The M1 chip apparently is your moment.


      The other thing this means is that apple’s ARM software designers are better than MS’, and their hardware engineers are better than Qualcomm’s, and maybe intel’s.

      • Avatar

        james.h.robinson

        In reply to Greg Green:

        Or it means Apple's software engineers have different priorities and Microsoft's?

      • Avatar

        bkkcanuck

        In reply to Greg Green:

        Intel has had good hardware engineers, unfortunately right now it is run by a CEO that is just another MBA ... regardless of the quality of the hardware engineers they will be hamstrung. They need to find a good CEO that is or has been an electrical engineer at heart (but with additional business management skill set). Intel have been maximizing profits at the expense of engineering for too long. The problem with Qualcomm is that they have not viewed the ARM ISA processors as a core business enough to just let their engineers go crazy IMHO. Qualcomm obviously has some very good hardware engineers based on what they deliver that they consider their core business.

  6. Avatar

    anoldamigauser

    In reply to Jeffsters:

    Just so you know, a lot of people work with software that is rather specialized for the industry they are in, so the fact that they can run Office and Adobe Creative Cloud on an M1 Mac does not really help them. I work in AEC and there are many packages that will not run on a Mac.

    It only takes one program that is not there to make a platform useless.

  7. Avatar

    bkkcanuck

    In reply to Jeffsters:

    I can name quite a few pieces of software that only run on Windows, or only run on macOS (more general in nature). In enterprise software you are typically building high cost, high price tag software and would only build a UI that makes financial sense and that we would typically build one UI with others developed large custom projects for specific customers.


    One customer I work as a consultant/contractor still has legacy applications written in VB (not even VB.net) and another one that is still running as a Visual Foxpro / Foxpro for Windows app. Typically though these older legacy apps are now hosted and accessible from the end-user machines through 'Remote Desktop' (which is accessible from both Windows and macOS machines).


    For new custom applications (that do not need high power local graphics), the tendancy I have seen is to develop a web UI first (and maybe only). In fact, if I were redeveloping the current banking platform - I would build it first as a web app which is accessible cross-platform..... etc. The only other UIs I would consider building (based on demand) would be iOS/iPadOS UI and/or Android as web apps are less than optimal on mobile devices. With the unification of development between iPadOS UI - I 'could' see a use case where the delta cost to develop a macOS app so low - that it might be worth it (depends on demand)


    Going forward IMHO, I don't see a need to write Windows specific software since a web UI is often good enough and they have no story at this point for mobile.


    Manufacturing or device level apps like that are will continue to be on Windows - though they often are not even on the most recent Windows....



  8. Avatar

    wright_is

    In reply to Jeffsters:

    Alcatel CTI (only runs Intel and only runs in the same bitness as the host OS - i.e. on a Surface Pro X, it would be x64 only and Intel only, which currently is a no-go.

    Our ERP system is written in COBOL and creaks along on Windows 2008, can't run on newer versions of Server or Windows 8 or 10. It is currently being replaced with a Java based system, so moving forward that will fall away.

    Capture One - 64 bit Intel only (in this case, there is a macOS version, but no WoA).

    Serif Affinity series tools - 64 bit Intel only (again, available for macOS, but no WoA).

    HyperV for virtual machines (currently running half a dozen test servers on my Ryzen PC, HyperV is finally available on WoA, but it would mean rebuilding all of the server images, CentOS does run on ARM, so it would probably work, but is a major hassle to have to rebuild those servers).

    Then, at work, there is all the lab & production equipment, which is stuck on Windows XP and Windows 7, because the drivers don't support anything later (only newer equipment gets Windows 10 x64 Intel drivers), so no chance of replacing those PCs with ARM kit. That would require replacing around $1,500,000 worth of lab and manufacturing equipment for the sake of half a dozen PCs going to ARM.

  9. Avatar

    anoldamigauser

    In reply to lvthunder:

    Yes, AEC is architecture, engineering and construction. The demand, however is not there yet. Revit does not work on Mac, nor do many other CADD systems. There are also many other bits of design software...roadway alignment, site preparation, structural analysis that do not have much support on Mac.

    Agree that the move to cloud versions will eventually solve this, but until Apple makes the Mac more compatible with corporate networks, I do not see companies moving to it in large numbers. Small shops sure, but not the big boys.

    • Avatar

      bkkcanuck

      In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:

      Yes, IBM's 200,000 Macs are so small :o (and probably getting smaller after they split into two companies and further shrink :o ) The consulting company I use to work for (20 years ago - was Windows there), has maybe 10,000ish consultants - mostly macs now since they gave people a choice...


      • Avatar

        anoldamigauser

        In reply to bkkcanuck:

        That could not possibly have anything to do with the bad blood between Big Blue and Microsoft, could it?


        Last I remember, IBM was not an AEC firm, though I suppose as a facility owner they would have some need of the software.

        • Avatar

          bkkcanuck

          In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:

          What bad blood between Microsoft and IBM? (there might have been some from a couple decades earlier but the company had spun off it's PC business). The use of Macs started maybe 5 years ago, they had a lot if iPads though at that point, they invested a lot into developing processes etc. for managing large scale deployments of Macs and figured their own experiences could provide a foundation for services. Their own experience was that over the lifetime of the product their per unit deployment was actually cheaper than deploying Windows... so they effectively gave their employees a choice.


          I do have a soft-spot for IBM personally, but I would not want to work for them again... (I worked for them for a year after they bought out my company - which was not culturally mature enough merge in without issues which lead to effectively the unit being dissolved and dispersed to other parts (that was not their plan but a few years inside IBM and it very clear this would be a failed merger).


          My soft spot for IBM came when I was younger, and I use to just show up at their offices (in high school) to buy manuals for servers etc. (it was not a retail location), they could not sell me the manuals (the price was on all of them) but they were very helpful and basically gave me whatever I wanted.


          I remember even younger when an IBM representative came to meet with my father (at home), and he rang the doorbell.... I opened the door and there was a person in a brown suit saying he was here to meet my father... I told him he was an obvious imposter and closed the door.... then told my father that there was an imposter at the door saying he was from IBM.... but he could not be since he was wearing a brown suit and not a blue one...

      • Avatar

        illuminated

        In reply to bkkcanuck:

        If company has windows servers and clients then what can consultant with Mac recommend?

  10. Avatar

    james.h.robinson

    In reply to Jeffsters:

    Those niche applications are often used by Fortune 1,000 companies and huge governmental organizations, so...

    • Avatar

      anoldamigauser

      In reply to james.h.robinson:

      And what those companies and organizations care about is their data and their IP. After that, they care about the applications that create, manipulate, and format that data. Miles and miles down their list of concerns is the microprocessor in the computer that had damn well better run the software they use in the care and feeding of that data.

      Taking nothing away from the achievement, which is impressive from a hardware and software perspective, all of this is just the navel gazing of a bunch of nerds because it is really cool.


  11. Avatar

    wright_is

    In reply to lvthunder:

    Yes, but Alcatel, UniFi, Swyx, RSW, Siemens and all the other hardware and software suppliers we use aren't planning on releasing ARM versions of their software, let alone ARM drivers for their hardware.

  12. Avatar

    SAPaleAle

    In reply to lvthunder:

    Yes I realise I am a small minority I was just putting forward my opinion and I personally will not consider anything from Apple unless it does something so much better than everything else that it isn't an option.

    @curtisspendlove it would be nice to specialise but the software and hardware we use (much of it specialised) that makes that not an option and the nearest Apple Store is 250kms away. I have had no issue with warranty (not that we have had many issues) with Lenovo, HP , Dell etc

    • Avatar

      wright_is

      In reply to SAPaleAle:

      Yes, the warranties from PC manufacturers are often the winning argument against Apple.

      We have 4 hour on-site for our servers and next working day on-site for our PCs and laptops. Apple offers send it in and wait 2 weeks, or an 8 hour drive to the next Apple Store and back.

      2017 we had a motherboard in a server fail, the engineer was on-site within 3 hours and the server back up and running within 5.

      2019 we had a laptop fail at 16:00 in the afternoon, the engineer was there and replaced the motherboard at 10:00 the next morning. And we had a RAID controller in our SAN die, that was replaced within 4 hours as well, luckily it was a redundant part, so no downtime.

      We don't need the warranty services very often - we only have around 500 PCs, laptops and servers, so having to call out for an engineer is rare, but it is nice to know we can have a device repaired or replaced in a few hours.

      Apple just don't offer anything here that can be called a competent business service. They don't have any engineers that come out, not even sub-contractors.

      • Avatar

        Truffles

        In reply to SAPaleAle:

        Apple just don't offer anything here that can be called a competent business service. They don't have any engineers that come out, not even sub-contractors.


        Apple sell a 24/7 1hr onsite service contract fulfilled by IBM. I suspect a buyer would need one of those novelty cheques to fit the fee on it.

      • Avatar

        briantlewis

        In reply to wright_is:

        A warranty alone does not guarantee service. One of my work laptops is a Dell Precision 53xx series. It's been super unstable recently so work IT recommended it get its board swapped. It took three weeks to get the part. And now that it's installed it's looking more like the memory might have been bad. Good times.

    • Avatar

      curtisspendlove

      In reply to SAPaleAle:

      @curtisspendlove it would be nice to specialise but the software and hardware we use (much of it specialised) that makes that not an option and the nearest Apple Store is 250kms away. I have had no issue with warranty (not that we have had many issues) with Lenovo, HP , Dell etc


      Yup. My point being that the IT team specialized in Mac issues because everyone had Macs. (The only exception was the small call floor that handled customer support they were on Chromeboxes / Chromebooks.)


      (This was easy because it was a SaaS startup. We wrote the stuff they needed to support the service *into* the webapp.)


      We had an Apple store that was about 10 minutes away, but we rarely had to use it. I occasionally went with one of the IT guys because we’d usually go for lunch and drop a Mac off before on the rare occasion that they had to take one out.


      It isn’t that much different “specializing” in Apple stuff than it is “specializing“ in a selected set of Windows-based or “Linux-based” systems.


      The main difference, as wright_is already mentioned, is firs-party support. I recommend anyone should treat Apple (support strategy-wise) as they would Linux.


      It will cost you time or money (or both). For instance, I wouldn’t recommend an organization go in with RHEL unless they had either a support contract or an on-site (contract specialists would usually suffice) team (could be a team of one) experienced in supporting it.


      Same with Apple, but it’s far easier to support the 80/20 split of Apple systems than it is to support the 80/20 split of RHEL or SUSE.


      :: shrug ::

  13. Avatar

    Greg Green

    If you go with a Mac, choose the M1 mini Mac, assuming you already have a display. It’s the cheapest Mac you can buy ($700) and outperforms last year’s $3800 intel iMac.


    Otherwise wait til spring and see if M1/M2 iMacs are released. The next apple chip should outperform nearly all intel and AMD consumer chips and have a large improvement in graphics. So even the lowest priced iMac should be a good computing and gaming device.


    Reviews of Rosetta 2 software for running x86 applications are very positive at this point. Over at MacWorld they’re now using Mac mini’s to play x86 Steam games, something they thought they’d never do on an apple pc.


    Yes, it’s a pretty amazing jump by apple. They’ll soon be the performance leading and energy efficiency leading chip builder.

    • Avatar

      peterc

      In reply to Greg Green:

      Exactly. And the majority of young iPad and iPhone users will base their “PC buying choice” on the fact they can run all the apps they’ve used for years on their iOS devices.... I think the keep calm and carry on using windows brigade just don’t see what’s about to occur over the next decade.

      • Avatar

        wright_is

        In reply to peterc:

        We have two different markets here. We have business, which won't change its software, just because new employees prefer to use an iPad. If their corporate LoB software is Windows or Linux, the employees have to use Windows or Linux.

        Private usage, yes, I agree. People who grew up on iPads and Android phones aren't going to want Windows, unless they start using it at work and decide to keep the same environment at both ends.

        I've worked at several companies over the last decade and I've interacted as a consultant with dozens of others. Often the systems are Windows Server or Linux server backends with Windows only clients. At one company, an open source security company, it was pretty much 100% Linux, the sales manager used Windows and I used Windows and Linux and had to set-up a Windows network for testing - that was the trickiest part.

        New employees are given a standard PC or laptop, depending on their role, with the relevant software for their role and that's it. They can't use a different device and they can't add additional software without authorization.

        A majority of the production line software and laboratory analysis devices are Windows only, and often not current versions of Windows.

        So it is irrelevant, whether the user only has an iPad at home they have no choice at work.

        As I said above, I agree, those who grew up on mobile and need something "more" at home will probably buy into the eco-system closest to that with which they grew up.

      • Avatar

        james.h.robinson

        In reply to peterc:

        Yeah, I heard that during the previous decade when Steve Jobs talked about the "post-PC" era. I feel for his bait hook, line, and sinker. I won't do that again.


        To start with, Android is used much more than iOS around the world. And when it comes to "PC Buying Choice," many schools in the USA are using Chromebooks, and I think other nations are following that path. If anything, Chrome OS is more a threat to Windows than iOS.


        And at the end of the day, young and non-so-young people will use what their employers tell them to use if they want to stay employed.

        • Avatar

          peterc

          In reply to james.h.robinson:

          >>  and I think other nations are following that path. Here in the UK schools tend to use Windows laptops/MS 365 accounts and ipads, but there is some chromebook useage. it depends on the local area authority.


          >> And at the end of the day, young and non-so-young people will use what their employers tell them to use if they want to stay employed. At work maybe, although i'd take note that this whole Covid virus issue has staff using whatever device they can from a home environment and in my opinion has re-written the rule book on flexible working conditions. Anyway what I choose to buy and use at home is not dictated to by my employer...


          I think the difference in 2020 compared to the steve jobs post pc era comment you bring up is that now you can actually buy a desktop OS that runs your iOS apps (even if its early days functionality speaking). I ran a quick poll of my sons teenage mates to see who would choose which product and every single one who uses an iphone/ipad chose the macbook air so they can run "their apps"......


          This is why Microsoft is trying to bring android apps to windows as quickly as possible...

          • Avatar

            wright_is

            In reply to peterc:

            In Germany it is also mainly Windows and iPads in schools. Cloud services, like Google or Microsoft 365 are quasi illegal at the moment, because of the failure of Privacy Shield and things like the CLOUD Act and FISA courts in the USA.

            Due to the corona virus, our people are working partly from home (we are a manufacturing company,so a majority of the staff have to come in,but back office staff are working from home). Due to GDPR, they cannot use personal devices. They have to use company laptops.

  14. Avatar

    Daekar

    The real hammerblow hasn't even come yet. The next version, whenever it comes, is probably going to embarrass everything else on the market.


    I can't wait to see what happens next... Does the industry follow in Apple's footsteps and produce competing products? Or is this the start of an era where the best way to run Windows is to hack it onto an M1-style chip from Apple?


    When they add compatibility for discrete GPUs, it will really be game-on in every sense of the phrase.

    • Avatar

      james.h.robinson

      In reply to Daekar:

      I'm old enough to remember when the Motorola 68000 embarrassed x86 back in the 1980s. The Mac, the Amiga, and the Atari ST all ran on that Motorola processor. And you know what happened? MS-DOS and then Windows dominated. Now only the Mac survives out of the 3 machines I mentioned.


      The best processor does not always win.

    • Avatar

      wright_is

      In reply to Daekar:

      At the end of the day, no matter how fast Apple makes it, if it can't run the software you need on a daily basis, it is, strictly speaking, irrelevant.

      A majority of the software I have won't run on WoA, let alone macOS, so it doesn't matter how fast the Apple chips are, as long as the Intel/AMD chips are fast enough to let me work.

      For home, I'd buy an M1 based Linux box to play with and probably use it as my main system. At the moment, I am very tempted to get the new Raspberry Pi 400.

      • Avatar

        Daekar

        In reply to wright_is:

        OH, I totally agree. This is almost completely irrelevant for me - I am a gamer who builds his own PCs and doesn't own or want a laptop for personal use. Apple could literally double the CPU performance and there would still be zero chances they'd get any of my money. But that's not true of everyone, and the market would shift accordingly, after which my options would change.

  15. Avatar

    codymesh

    just like when the first Macbook Air was unveiled in 2008, the PC industry will have to collectively come up with an answer (e.g. Intel's Ultrabook initiative).


    The first step? Making silicon that can match M1's performance and efficiency. ARM's Cortex-X1 should be one to watch, and we should expect at least Qualcomm to deliver something that is magnitudes better than what they have given thus far.

  16. Avatar

    wright_is

    In reply to Bob_Shutts:

    The base model costs 778€ ($920 at the current exchange rate).

  17. Avatar

    thejoefin

    I don't need a new computer right now, so no pressure to buy an M1 Mac or a PC any time soon. The M1 is interesting to me, however it would be super compelling if it was in an iPad Pro. I want an Apple Surface. Run iPad apps and programs like VSCode and XCode. When that device comes out I'll be very tempted to buy it.


    I know this isn't a super typical use case, but I'd love to replace my Surface Go with a device with great battery life, great tablet apps, AND the ability to do real development work. Maybe in a couple of years we'll get there.

  18. Avatar

    wright_is

    In reply to Bob_Shutts:

    Hmm, I did reply earlier, but it seems to have disappeared.

    The basic mini costs 760€, adding $920.

  19. Avatar

    F4IL

    I think the M1 is irrelevant in this context.

    People who need a computer with a modular and extensible design will get / build a PC, those who want to get a Mac will just get a Mac. Apple is still selling Intel Macs and people are probably buying them.

    • Avatar

      JeffKirvin

      In reply to F4IL:

      I don't think it's that simple. Literal all day battery life is a qualitative difference from what PCs are capable of. And with so many products and services being web-based, it barely matters for most users what OS they're running. Legacy apps that don't run on the Mac can be virtualized in Azure and accessed via WVD. I work for a Microsoft-centric MSP, and I use a Mac, an iPad and an iPhone for my daily work.

      • Avatar

        wright_is

        In reply to JeffKirvin:

        For those that build there own, battery life is irrelevant.

        I have an HP laptop, I used to use it, when I was working at a translation agency, but nowadays, it gets turned on once or twice a month, when my wife needs to do online banking or enter her timesheet for work.

        I use my desktop. Battery life is irrelevant, it doesn't have a battery (other than the CMOS battery, and lasts for years).

        At work, I have a ThinkPad T480. I think I get about 6 hours out of that, probably, I've never run it for more than about 2 hours without it being connected to the charger. It spends 99.9% of its time attached to the dock, but, because we support 3 sites and now have home office as well, a laptop is required for when we travel, but it has to be connected to Ethernet at each site and, as it is tethered by the network cable, I also, generally, plug in the power supply. I need it for the portability of my workspace, I don't need it to run off batteries, most of the time.

        If you don't need to be able to work on the move, then it doesn't matter if battery life has improved from 2 hours to 2 weeks, it doesn't make any difference to the way you use the PC and won't be a buying influence.

        For me, multiple large displays and an ergonomic keyboard and mouse are more important than battery life.

    • Avatar

      bkkcanuck

      In reply to F4IL:

      A modular and extensible design actually meets the needs of a small subset of users. Laptops themselves make up around 65% of the market, desktop computers make up maybe 35% at most. Of those desktop computers, most computers sold to businesses are sold preconfigured and that configuration is never changed. So the vast majority of computers - really don't need to be modular at all - they just need to deliver the configuration you need. The majority of users don't care about the or have to know which processor it is, they just need it to run the software they need - and in many cases is a rather small number of applications overall. What is important is what the computer can do to better your work life or life -- and that will likely come down to - how long does the battery last, and does the computer do what I need it to and at what cost. The M1 will likely deliver all the power most people need. The M1 will likely deliver on the all day battery power. The M1 will be able to deliver both of those things on likely the lowest SKU. When you go to a computer order page with Intel processors you usually get a choice of 4+ processor options (starting at a tray price to the manufacturer of $250 up to $500 or more) -- intentionally so that the addon price of the processor drives higher profitability for Intel. A processor like the M1 will be the most powerful processor option available for a specific thermal envelope at the lowest and only sku price... In the end Apple will be able to deliver more for less. That is the story that is developing, and that is why Windows partners have to have a competing option or they will just be seen as legacy and that will threaten the hold that Windows has on many markets now... it will start slow, but if no competing story develops... it could eventually lead to continuing decline over time IMHO.

    • Avatar

      Greg Green

      In reply to F4IL:

      Apple’s first try at a desktop chip beats intel’s 8 core in performance and energy efficiency. It also beats intel’s igps. Those who need power and efficiency will now be able to get a bottom tier apple laptop for $1000 that outperforms $1500 intel laptops. Even Rosetta 2 is getting very good reviews for its ability to run x86 software.


      The only weakness for apple laptops now is their small screen size at that price.

  20. Avatar

    Truffles

    No way would the manufacturers want Windows running on M1 as they'll lose a ton of sales to Apple (those specs on the Air are astonishing). I expect there'll be a few heated conversations happening between MS and the PC manufacturers.

    • Avatar

      wright_is

      In reply to Truffles:

      More likely between the PC manufacturers and Intel and AMD - although AMD seems to have made the performance jump as well. Their Generation 5 Ryzen processors outstrip Intel for nearly all tasks, have more cores and have had PCIe 4 for 2 generations now.

      I'd love to try the new Macs, but I can't justify the cost and all my software is x86 only. Until the software becomes available on ARM, there is no point is fretting about it, it doesn't matter if ARM is faster or not, if I can't actually run the software I need on it.

      This goes back to the 70s, through to the mid-90s. You looked at the application you needed to run and you bought the hardware that ran your applications the best (or at all). I think we will see this going forward for a few years at least. If your software is x86 only, you will keep buying x86 kit. If your software also runs on ARM, you'll probably slowly start to replace you legacy hardware with ARM kit.

      I use a mixture at home, I have a Ryzen desktop and a Core i5 laptop, plus a bunch of Pis for specific tasks. They are cheap enough and frugal enough to leave them running specific tasks. But none of my day-to-day software will run on WoS, so there is no point looking at it yet - and there are no desktop ARM processors that would be a suitable replacement for my Ryzen, yet.

      • Avatar

        Greg Green

        In reply to wright_is:

        Try a Mac mini. Rosetta 2 seems surprisingly capable.

        • Avatar

          wright_is

          In reply to Greg Green:

          Most of the software I need on a daily basis is Windows only, so Rosetta 2 or no, the software won't run on an M1 Mac.

          • Avatar

            Paul Thurrott

            Windows-only software has to be from another era. That was more common 15 years ago than today.
            • Avatar

              wright_is

              In reply to paul-thurrott:

              It is my daily bread-and-butter.

              Most of our mission critical stuff is WIndows only.

              Although the bookeeping software has a feature-stripped web-server version now, but all our users still use the fully-featured Windows-only client.

              • Avatar

                Paul Thurrott

                Sure. I guess what I mean is, that's less and less common these days.
                • Avatar

                  wright_is

                  In reply to paul-thurrott:

                  What was really scary was that many banks, here in Germany, were using OS/2 until around the end of the last decade!

                  If you go into many furniture stores, the system they use to generate receipts for you to take to the checkout are generated using an old SAP ERP system that still runs in an IBM terminal emulation package running under Windows.

                  One software company was still selling their ERP system in 2015 running on SUSE Enterprise Linux 7, which was released in 2001 and went out of support in 2005! "Security updates? Why? Its Linux!" was their attitude. It was only when they could no longer get a compatible RAID controller that they were forced to upgrade their operating system and spend several months trying to get their software to work on a "new fangled" (2013) version of CentOS...

                  Heck, they only migrated their last customer from a DEC Alpha running Ultrix to a Linux server (yes, with SLES 7) in 2013 and then they could turn off their own DEC Alpha development machine.

                  I think you give businesses and their suppliers much more credit than they deserve.

                • Avatar

                  james.h.robinson

                  In reply to wright_is:

                  Same with many US financial institutions. IBM really had its hooks in that industry.

  21. Avatar

    lvthunder

    Long term it means AMD, Intel, Qualcomm, or some new chip maker needs to get going. I don't see Dell, Lenovo, and HP being happy at the fact that Apple can create cooler running systems with the same or better performance then they can. I heard Apple has 1000 chip designers. To me that doesn't sound like a lot of people that the PC side should be able to do the same thing. I don't know if they achieved the thermals by going with ARM instead of X86 or if it's the 5nm thing. It really doesn't matter. I want a Surface Book that doesn't get really hot and throttle down after editing photos for an hour or so. That's the biggest difference I've noticed going from Surface Book to Surface Book 3 is how much hotter it gets.

  22. Avatar

    anoldamigauser

    What Apple pulled off is a significant achievement, and it will help them standardize development efforts across their product line, and will improve the already good profit margins on Macs. I am not sure it means anything for Microsoft and the PC Makers. People will buy a Windows device if they need a Windows device. What Apple offers is meaningless in that context.

    • Avatar

      jackwagon

      In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:

      It would be funny if Parallels combined with Rosetta 2 wound up providing better compatibility with Windows programs than Qualcomm's offerings have provided so far. I'll grant that it's not likely to happen, but it would be kind of amusing if it did.

      • Avatar

        anoldamigauser

        In reply to Jackwagon:

        Ironic I suppose, it would be worth a laugh though.

        Still not sure it would matter. I cannot imagine ordinary folk deciding to buy a Mac, then run a VM of Windows, just to run the Windows apps they need. I don't think people care what processor is in their computer, just that it runs what they want to run. I don't see the purpose of Windows on ARM at this point either.

        • Avatar

          JeffKirvin

          In reply to AnOldAmigaUser:

          Which Windows-only apps do you see ordinary folk still needing?

          • Avatar

            curtisspendlove

            In reply to JeffKirvin:


            Which Windows-only apps do you see ordinary folk still needing?


            Im sure there are some. There’s always some hobby app for counting cross-stitch or something.


            But the thing is, those types of apps are usually pretty old and not frequently updated. So they are probably on a timer for functionality.


            And my guess would be that it’s far more likely to find some sort of hobby app that is reasonably well-maintained on iOS or Android.


            It’s hard to build a sustainable software project on any of the traditional desktop OS platforms.

            • Avatar

              wright_is

              In reply to curtisspendlove:

              I agree. It isn't that much of a problem for ordinary users. But they are a small minority. The majority are companies and they have a lot of software that can't be updated or costs a fortune to upgrade (E.g. going from Windows 7 to Windows 10, new drivers for lab kit or production lines will cost upwards of 6 figures (essentially, you want to use Windows 10, buy a new piece of lab equipment to get updated drivers, a bargain, to you, just $750,000! Those suppliers will be the same, when it comes to switching to away from Intel, "oh, you bought a new ARM PC? Yes, drivers and analysis software, well, $750,000 and you can have ARM versions!").

              Companies just aren't going to invest that sort of money replacing plant and peripherals that they don't need to replace. They'll hang onto Intel as long as they can, or until the peripherals need replacing (10 - 20 years, usually).

              Our PLC management system runs on Internet Explorer 11 with ActiveX and, even though Microsoft announced years ago that IE was being retired and ActiveX is unsafe, there is still no alternative, even the relatively new production lines (2 - 3 years old) are still controlled that way. And it won't run in Edge with IE legacy tabs, we tried... Those machines will be isolated on their own network segment, with no internet access. A new production line runs well into 7 figures, so they will be IE 11 + ActiveX powered for the next 15 - 20 years, I expect.

      • Avatar

        bkkcanuck

        In reply to Jackwagon:

        It is not likely to be remotely possible as with a VM running random code (of an OS that is not customized at the kernel level) to pre translate the code ahead of time so it would be translating at run time only.

        • Avatar

          curtisspendlove

          In reply to bkkcanuck:

          It is not likely to be remotely possible as with a VM running random code (of an OS that is not customized at the kernel level) to pre translate the code ahead of time so it would be translating at run time only.


          I dunno. The CrossOver team has been doing some .. very interesting .. things. ;)


          www.codeweavers.com/blog/jwhite/2020/11/18/okay-im-on-the-bandwagon-apple-silicon-is-officially-cool


          “I can't tell you how cool that is; there is so much emulation going on under the covers. Imagine - a 32-bit Windows Intel binary, running in a 32-to-64 bridge in Wine / CrossOver on top of macOS, on an ARM CPU that is emulating x86 - and it works! This is just so cool.”


  23. Avatar

    Vladimir Carli

    the first reports are coming out that WoA can run in a virtualized environment on Apple silicon and the performance seems good. This could become pretty embarrassing for Qualcomm

  24. Avatar

    johnh3

    I dont know how it will affect Windows. But most ordinary people dont travel around with their laptops etc..So the battery life are not as important for them.

    And same if you got a stationery PC, its stuck at one place. Another aspect are pricing, Apple not compete with Chromebooks and cheaper PC.s.

    But I suppose competition is good. And if Microsoft get some decent ARM laptops it will be great.

  25. Avatar

    Adlton

    I'm not big fan of MacOS but I'm very tempted.

    Everything I hear about performance is at least good and in some cases astonishing, minus issues with iOS apps but I do not care about them.


    And I really want that battery life.


    I'm not in a market for laptop because I just bought new one just before pandemic hit but that battery life + performance is mighty tempting.


    I think PC manufacturers and x86 chip makers need to step up their game significantly, because I believe M series chips are gonna get very nice bumps in speed every year (at least A series chips did) and software will be optimized.


    • Avatar

      bkkcanuck

      In reply to Adlton:

      If reports are to be believed there are several years of chip improvements becoming more likely...

      5nm is not yet officially "volume production" (or was not when Apple began 5nm production), the cost per chip to produce will drop as the current process gets refined - which also means that there are likely improvements such as being able to make bigger chips on that process (within financial reason) as the reject rate will drop (usually during a new process it is economical to start with smaller chips and then introduce bigger chips later as the process becomes more refined). That means likely hardware improvements through 2021.


      TSMC has already stated they will start volume production of the 3nm chips in the second half of 2022 so it is possible again that Apple will get 3nm earlier than that (maybe in time for WWDC). TSMC has had a reputation of staying on schedule recently so my bet that is already more or less locked in.


      TSMC has also indicated they have had a "breakthrough" in both process (moving from FinFET to MBCFET - skipping over GAAFET - which if people want to search they can - simply put it is an improvement in process that itself should allow for chip improvements in the same die size)... as well as 2nm process (so they will come together) - which they expect to be available in 2024.


      Simply put the future looks bright for the likes of Apple, AMD, nVidia and Qualcomm for significant improvements in chips for the next 4 years at least. This is a welcome relief since there were expectations that the industry would hit a wall at around 5nm for quite a while. (DNA I believe is 2.5nm in width to give some perspective).


      • Avatar

        shameer_mulji

        In reply to bkkcanuck:

        "5nm is not yet officially "volume production" (or was not when Apple began 5nm production)"


        Larry Jordan, who runs a popular site dedicated to Final Cut Pro users, recently wrote this regarding M1 Macs;


        "An engineer friend told me recently that the “M1 is a 1st-generation, proof-of-concept chip. There’s only one Thunderbolt bus, only 8 or 16 GB RAM, only up to 2 TB storage. It’s as much a testbed for TSMC’s 5nm fabrication process as anything. As that process settles in and yields rise, I fully expect core count, RAM, Thunderbolt busses, and addressable storage to increase.”


        "Think about where Apple released this new silicon first: On its low-end, general purpose laptops. Yes, these are popular, but they are popular with folks who have general computing needs. They need to run a variety of apps on a computer that is easily carried, provides extended battery life, and doesn’t break any of the most popular applications."


        Thoughts on the Future for Apple’s M1 Chip | Larry Jordan

  26. Avatar

    basic sandbox

    I was most likely going to buy a Windows laptop this winter. The M1 stellar reviews and Apple’s dramatic SSD improvements have caused me to hold off on a purchase. I tend to avoid first iteration products and might buy next year’s Mac Air. I also want to see what AMD does next year.


  27. Avatar

    2ilent8cho

    I've had my MacBook Pro M1 6 days now, apart from the initial charge out the box to take it to 100% I've not charged it yet. The battery life is just amazing. I've got an Intel i9 16" MacBook Pro and a Windows based gaming PC and I often play Cities Skylines and 7 Days to Die on both of these yet this M1 13" Pro without dedicated graphics is able to play both of them smooth and still be silent the fan does not kick in and everything is just so snappy/instant on it.


    Whilst the M1 is the 'shock' , I don't think it will be fully understood until people start to see the scaled up bigger versions of the M1. If you look at what performance and efficiency gains Apple have done in their A/AX chips for iPhones and iPads over the last decade Apple's Mac line could become obscenely fast compared to a x86 based PC. Let's say hypothetically the scaled M1 an M1X in the 16" or high end 13" offers double the performance of the M1, then 12 months later makes 30% performance gains over that in an M2X, then 12 months after that releases Mac's with M3X which is 30% faster than an M2X whilst the rest of the industry is scrambling to respond to just the M1.


    The PC industry also have another problem, the value of the MacBook Air or entry Mac mini. Whilst it has often been fun to poke fun at Apples premium pricing, the performance you now get from an entry level Mac mini or Air makes them very good value. Can HP, Lenovo etc compete using Intel or AMD chips with Apple in that MacBook Air price range with similar performance and battery life? and that's before you even touch on things that are not usually in spec lists such as trackpad, speaker, mic and build quality.


    • Avatar

      bkkcanuck

      In reply to 2ilent8cho:

      I expect each of the market segments (maybe 3 or 4 standard processors for all Macs) to offer premium chips for the lowest price for that model - rather than choices of 3, 4, or 5 Intel/AMD skus within each computer (it makes no financial sense to do the same as Intel as to cripple lower end chips so that higher end chip options will drive profits; with the exception of binning).


      I do expect a good gain on the 'M1X' or whatever they name it based on the rumoured (12 core processor -- obviously there is thermal headroom). I think 30%+ on the CPU side is well within the likely M1X performance gains... The GPU side - I cannot fathom a guess. I do wonder how far tile-based rendering can be pushed in comparison to nVidia/AMD intermediate-mode (I think the Intel endeavor is also tile based). Tile based rendering is much more efficient - so it is something to watch closely.

      The M1 computers IMHO will likely be far superior to Intel/AMD laptops going forward (65%+ of the market).



    • Avatar

      illuminated

      In reply to 2ilent8cho:

      It is 4 days later now. Is your new Mac still running on the original charge?

      • Avatar

        shark47

        In reply to illuminated:

        Different machine, but I get about 10 hours of browsing on the Air.

        • Avatar

          illuminated

          In reply to shark47:

          Got a new Dell recently and when I looked at battery meter it showed "battery 87%, 11+ hours remaining". Have to test it more but there is some progress even at intel.

          • Avatar

            shark47

            In reply to illuminated:

            How about performance? I only have a Surface Pro 5 to compare it to. I've done some basic photo editing in Photos, edited videos in iMovie and watched Youtube videos and it's remarkably fast and runs cool. On the Surface Pro, Photoshop slows done the computer.

        • Avatar

          wright_is

          In reply to shark47:

          So, about 15% better than my 2016 HP Spectre x360... I get around 8 - 9 hours out of it when doing office work and some browsing.

          • Avatar

            illuminated

            In reply to wright_is:

            8-9 hours is pretty good. Some people are so impressed by new Mac battery life as if Intel PCs last only 1-2 hours.

            • Avatar

              Paul Thurrott

              Several of the Intel- and AMD-based PCs I reviewed this year achieve that level of battery life.
            • Avatar

              bkkcanuck

              In reply to illuminated:

              Even on the newest computers I might at most get 6 hours based on my work pattern (on the best of them). When I was back working as a consultant going from hotel to work and back to hotel - probably at most 2 or 3 hours. If I could get 12 hours out of the new Macs (rated at 17 to 20 hours), I would have killed for one of those as it would allow me to just have a day carrying case without the power bar etc. to carry with me (the cords and power now are lighter though) -- but not having to worry about plugging in is always a great thing to have.

              • Avatar

                JeffKirvin

                In reply to bkkcanuck:

                I started using my MacBook Pro M1 on battery about 8 hours ago. Since then I've been using it constantly, screen on, just doing my regular job stuff (IT support). So Teams calls, remote sessions, web apps in the M1-optimized Chrome for ticketing system, RMM, etc.


                After 8 hours of continual work, battery is at 42% and the estimate is it can keep going another 5-6 hours. Frankly, I don't expect to be awake by then.


                So the Apple silicon MacBook Pro can literally run on battery while I use it from when I get out of bed to when I go to bed. That's good enough for my needs.

  28. Avatar

    fpalmieri

    The M1 Mac's probably impact the iPad Pro (see the Zdnet article comparing the two) more than the overall PC market other than applying more pressure on Intel, AMD & Qualcomm to make better processors. For developers, maybe all the tools can be available but to paraphrase Ballmer "Software, Software, Software" - unless there is some unbelievable change in market share dramatically quickly (12 to 18 months), the software people want to run on a PC runs on Windows. And yeah I know things are moving to the web, lots of cross platform options and more coming every day. I work for a large engineering software firm and we cover both Windows and Linux and really have little to no push from our customers to be on Mac compared to the push for Web/Cloud so bigger problems can be worked on from anywhere.

  29. Avatar

    ianw789

    I believe it will increase the rate at which people move from Windows to Mac in the coming years.


    I really do not like macOS, or Apple's closed ecosystem or their form-over-function approach to design. (To each their own.) But for the first time I'm seeing the possibility of moving to Mac in the future. I'm fed up with thermally throttled laptops that require me to carry around a charging adapter, and that have not improved much in years. Perhaps I'll be able to be all-in with .Net Core, C#, Office, Visual Studio, VS Code, Azure, etc. all on a Mac. The annoyances on being on macOS might be worth the CPU/battery performance gains.


    It will take a few years for me to tip that way and shed the legacy x86 anchors, but right now the direction seems clear. BFD indeed!

  30. Avatar

    scj123

    I guess what we really need to do is wait and see how they perform in the real world, benchmarks only show us a certain amount about things. I suspect these will be good, but for most people will they really need the power and battery life at that price. I rarely push my laptop to its limits and its fast enough, I also get a good amount of time from it and charge it once a day.


    And for those people who need Apple's higher end equipment, you still need to buy Intel.


    • Avatar

      shark47

      In reply to scj123:

      I've had my M1 Air for a few days and so far, it's exceeded my expectations. Some x86 apps crash when launched, but the ones that run, run pretty well.


      Also, I'm not sure why anyone would buy an Intel Mac anymore, given that that platform is set to die in a couple years.

      • Avatar

        scj123

        In reply to shark47:

        I guess the main reason to buy x86 Macs at the moment are for the things Apple Silicon cant do, like memory above 16gb, non integrated GPUs


        Hopefully this will be sorted in the M2 chips and they will move away from Intel altogether.

      • Avatar

        webdev511

        In reply to shark47:

        The intel powered Macs will still be manufactured for my guess is at least a year or two. Granted nothing new in features, CPU, memory, etc. but they'll still be out there until the ARM based Macs are on par with memory and connections. I'm getting one last OS update on my 2012 11" Macbook Air, so Intel powered Macs will be around for quite some time. The real tell will be how long software publishers will continue to up issue stability and security patches for x86 based apps.

    • Avatar

      Greg Green

      In reply to scj123:

      Not really. A 10 min 4K video export took 6 min on a $3800 8 core intel IMac, 3 min on the Mac mini M1. See YouTube Gregsgadgets “The M1 Mac Mini is the ONLY Mac Desktop You Should Buy!” (No relation)


      The M1 is changing things in a very large way.

  31. Avatar

    shark47

    In reply to bkkcanuck:

    That's because add touch to the MacBook Air and you don't really need an iPad Pro. I'm not saying these devices don't work well together or that people don't buy them (they obviously buy them in droves). I'm just saying they want people to buy and iPhone and an iPad and a Mac, despite some overlap in functionality.

    • Avatar

      Paul Thurrott

      It would still need to work like a tablet to replace an iPad Pro.
      • Avatar

        angusmatheson

        In reply to paul-thurrott:

        I agree. I have really tried to use a surface pro as a tablet, and it doesn’t work well at all. The iPad Pro is lovely at tablety things- taking off the keyboard, using it in the sofa, and so on. I really think being a good tablet is more then simply having a touch screen. The apps and especially the touch targets and the onscreen keyboard really make a big difference. I think Apple was smart to keep desktop and clamshell computers apart from tablets. (Although an iPad Pro in a big screen with keyboard and mouse is surprisingly good (if you are ok only mirroring) but lacks all the normal desktop apps)

  32. Avatar

    beckoningeagle

    I had to setup a new M1 Mac for a customer yesterday. I must say, I was suprised by Rossetta. All the Intel apps worked flawlessly and fast. The only time they feel slow is the first time you run an intel app. Maybe because some compiling or profile setup occurs in the background. To me the performance level was unexpected. I just hope Microsoft is able to pull something like this off with Windows on ARM.

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