Tim Cook Shoots Down Convergence Rumors

Posted on April 19, 2018 by Paul Thurrott in Apple, iOS with 133 Comments

Image credit: Peter Wells

Apple CEO Tim Cook pulled his head out of the sand just long enough to dash our hopes and dreams. By which I mean, he just denied that Apple was looking to bring iPad apps to the Mac.

“We don’t believe in sort of watering down one for the other,” Cook told The Sydney Morning Herald. “One of the reasons that both of them are incredible is because we pushed them to do what they do well. And if you begin to merge the two, you begin to make trade-offs and compromises.”

“So maybe the company would be more efficient at the end of the day, but that’s not what it’s about,” he continued. “It’s about giving people things that they can then use to help them change the world or express their passion or express their creativity. So this merger thing that some folks are fixated on, I don’t think that’s what users want.”

But we can at least take heart in the fact that he uses all of Apple’s products.

“I generally use a Mac at work, and I use an iPad at home,” Cook said. “And I always use the iPad when I’m traveling. But I use everything and I love everything.”

You’d love a 2-in-1, too, Tim. Just saying.

 

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Comments (134)

134 responses to “Tim Cook Shoots Down Convergence Rumors”

  1. dcdevito

    It's such a huge opportunity, why would they NOT consider it? oh right, because they're Apple

  2. rameshthanikodi

    The comments section on this site is becoming increasingly unbearable. I guess I should have seen it coming, because everything on the internet seems to end up like this, but I had higher hopes for the readership of this site.


    Anyway, Tim Cook isn't very bright. He's a business guy - logistics and supply chain. He is no visionary like Steve Jobs. Apple's quality of software has deteriorated since under his helm. As far as I can tell, people actually want iOS apps on their Macs. Just like the addition of Android apps to ChromeOS which people are supposedly dying to switch to.


    Only the Microsoft bashers on this site think this is a 'dumbing down' of the systems. The truth is, you can have it all. You can have both powerful mobile apps and desktop apps. And Microsoft is right to do it on Windows.

    • nbplopes

      In reply to FalseAgent:


      Let me try to make it more bearable :)


      Neither Windows or OSX have an app problem. Both ecosystems are application rich. Sourcing apps both from traditional methods like downloading directly from the supplier. But also more advanced, like using web apps or sourcing apps from their respective App Stores.


      Never heard anyone complaining about the lack of application in Windows.


      Eventually, like ever, people want better applications. Furthermore we want these ecosystems to improve.


      Bringing iPad apps to the OSX would only bring redundant apps to an ecosystem that is already is application rich. In principle that is not bad, choice, but also creates problems. App redundancy is problem MS is having problems with, and its confuses users but fundamentally the application market. You see, tablet / mobile apps are priced lower. So eventually users would have to pay more for mobile apps or desktop apps would need to be priced lower. The bottom line, is that in the context of current desktops and laptops solves little and creates more problems. Problems that Windows 10 has and that MS has been going around in circles to solving a problem that people don't really have.


      The Chromebook / Chrome OS, built for laptops is used has an example of such move. Yet, you see, Chrome OS does not have a very strong application ecosystem like iOS, Android and Windows has. So bringing Android apps to Chrome OS actually solves an ecosystem problem, a users problem. I'm actually phased by how MS dropped the ball on the laptop front, allowing an ecosystem lacking in apps to become an issue!!!!!! That is the problem MS needs to solve aggressively and showing Windows 10 S running on expensive laptops, its precisely the opposite of what a the solution needs!!!!!!!!!! Yes, that is what they did to present Windows 10 S showing that they did have a f* clue where the storm is coming from. First with Balmer they were blinded by their own light (Ego), but than they get blinded by Apple light in this context (too much humbleness). Where is the Vision for this context? If there was one it was thin as paper.


      Apple does not need to do what Google is doing with Chromebooks since they don't have the same problem. Neither they have to do what MS is doing with Windows. The problem of Windows is that they don't have a strong Handheld ecosystem, that is why they Tablet value proposition is so weak. Apple does not have that problem at all.


      But can Tablets replace the laptops? That is the question that needs an answer. That is why MS is so much into describing the Surface Pro for a Tablet even with such a week ecosystem in that context. They want to define what a Tablet is! The problem is that ... well someone else already defined what it is with a very strong app ecosystem in comparison!


      So what about the iPad Pro. As Apple said it is trying with it to replace the laptop. Well, the advantage of Apple is that it defined what a modern Tablet is. It was interesting how they did it. Both Apple and MS solved the laptop context by bringing the the desktop OS to it. That was enough. But brining the desktop OS to solve the handheld problem ... well MS attempted it and failed.. Apple, armed with its increasingly popular handheld OS, iOS tackled the Tablet context. after all a Tablet its a handheld device. By doing so, well, they defined the category. Makes sense doesn't it, handheld OS (phone) -> handheld OS (tablet)?


      Now we have the iPad Pro. The challenge that Apple faces, and the question they are looking for an answers is ... can an Handheld OS be made useful in a non handheld environment to the point one does not need anything else for typical office/writers work? Photographers and artists already see the benefit with strong fluent graphic/visual capabilities. Armed with a strong handheld ecosystem it seams that all they need to do for now, is to bring mouse support. If I'm not with a computer in my hand, I have not seen yet a better solution than use a keyboard and a mouse for intensive interaction in such a small surface such as the ones found on laptops. I cannot for-see how such support would hurt the Tablet OS and the Handheld ecosystem, but hey I'm not a very smart person, honest. Will see. But it would be weird if they did not try, considering they have no problems people leaving their laptops in favor of the tablets for office like work .... unlike Microsoft. People that really need the power can always use a desktop in tandem, say to make a super dupe vídeo-cast with multiple people like you see on this sites and others. It’s not that they do it down at the café. Just as an example.


      But there is more. Unlike Google and MS, Apple has strong solutions and ecosystems for all the three contexts: Handheld, Laptop and Desktop. They are exploring ways they can support the user performing a task on the three devices at the same time. You see, one of the things that hybrids compromise is multitasking!! For instance one cannot be taking notes with a pen while say coding a piece of software on Surface Pro. To explore this inherant multitasking potential of owning two devices, an extremely common scenario today (Vision), one of the things Apple introduced a few years ago is the concept of Handoff. There are many use cases but one is to start a call on a handheld device (say a smartphone) and finish on the desktop and vice versa. Another browsing the web, writing an email or document. At the moment one cannot be writing at the same document at the same time in the Tablet and the Desktop/Laptop, but I cannot see Apple not improving Handoff to a more fluid multitasking capabilities.


      That is why, I get frustrated when Windows fans see a feature done by Apple that Windows has a hard time to support and explain - "Apple can do that because its a closed system otherwise its not that impressive". Yeah, right, how does that matter when it comes to innovation? MS is not even attempting doing or failing miserably while trying. If all this were hard science problems for sure than MS would come up with proper solutions faster instead of ... well you know ... Windows on ARM 6 years late. Its not that anyone else pressured them to approach the problem as they did, both in technical terms and in business terms. If they feel that are getting stuck in the desktop and the windows laptop is at risk, its their own doing, no one else. Its not because other companies are lying about what they are delivering and their approach or vision. Throwing features at a problem is the same as throwing money at the problem. Same thing. Sometimes it works, other times it does not, either way its not a very smart way to do it.


      You might think that in the end Apple - Windows approach its a zero sum game when it comes to define how Tablets replace laptops, if ever. It does not look like it is one. Neither have solved that problem in a way that is relevant still. But one comes charging with both strong handheld and non-handheld ecosystems and the other comes with half strong hybrids with multitasking compromises, not to mention other compromises. Add to the mix a confusing Windows ARM value proposition.


      Hope this clarifies some things.

      • obarthelemy

        In reply to nbplopes:

        "Never heard anyone complaining about the lack of application in Windows."

        Please meet my mom: "my Scrabble app isn't on there ?", my nephew "no Clash of Clans ?", me "is there any RSS reader at all ?", my niece "I can only have WhatsApp on my PC*or* my laptop not both ???",...

        • Jorge Garcia

          In reply to obarthelemy:

          Exactly right. Normal (and Techie) people want the same software that they use on their phones to be available on their lager-format devices as well. why is that so wrong? Sure, it won't be optimized in many cases, but you can issue a warning..."Note: this touch-based mobile App is not optimized for your machine". People will simply click OK.

        • nbplopes

          In reply to obarthelemy:


          So your mom does not play Scrabble in Windows because "her app" as you put it is not there?

          You could not find an RSS reader in Windows?

          Why your niece can't have what's app in both? I do precisely that.


          You are confusing things because you know MS made you confused. You see, its not the job of MS or Apple to tell developer where they should support their users.


          It is precisely because of half thought visionaries and coffee time wannabe product managers that put MS and Windows into trouble. MS has done everything, everything you guys asked for, everything!!!! Still you guys act if it did not. Meanwhile Windows being more and more into question. Why don't you guys face that this:


          In sum, people want windows apps everywhere its just a bunch of abstract sh*


          Now it’s mobile apps everywhere.


          this is just wrong.


          If the challenge was in the boundaries of people wanting the same experience in a Phone as in the Laptop or Desktop, Windows Phone and Windows RT would have been a huge success and UWP would be thriving. Just the fact that it’s not by any means should be a clear sign that your perception of what people want, need and are capable of is wrong!


          The perception that the iPad Pro is pulling a Surface Pro is just wrong. Because as wrote they are coming from different premises. Google is also coming from different premises m. All this It’s not a zero sum game.


          Let me try give you a graphic analogy. Image you have a gadget (kind of a Swiss Amy knife), where you could pull out a spoon, a knife and a fork one at the time. It looks like a fascinating tool to go out camping. But could you comfortably and quickly eat a stake with it? That is the difference between what Apple is coming from and MS is coming from.


          Its not about forcing users to buy more or less devices, like Paul puts it. Not at all. He does not get it! So he is always throwing features at the a problem, suggesting more feature, more options to be put on Windows, more more more money spent!!!!. At least that is what it looks like, maybe he thinks otherwise and is not expressing himself that well. Don't know.


          You see just because you have a business model for something it does not diminish what your are trying to do at any level, it does not mean that you are trying to trick your customers, or lying about what younger trying to achieve! In fact, the clear is the case the more comfortable as a buyer you should be. Because if they did not, like sometimes MS presents things, should at least make you concerned. For two reasons:


          1) Either you are being presented the same thing jus a bit different. Maintaining the status quo to things.

          2) Whatever your are being presented it will be relegated to the abyss of forgetful as the the business model is either never found or does not stick.




      • Ugur

        In reply to nbplopes:

        Yes, very good points.

        MS biggest failure in promoting the pc against ARM tablets was that they were amongst those listening and scared of the "bit it has no modern (mobile) apps talk.

        While in reality it would just have taken a good leader and marketing team to present the logical and strong point of:

        Hey, we don't need the crappy mobile apps, we have the best, highest end, most mature and tech wise most cutting edge productivity and content creation apps and the best most in depth games of any platform.

        Simple.

        But MS leadership and marketing didn't get that, instead it took many years for most people to realize by themselves that hey, they actually still have use for pcs for work and/or ply when it is about more in depth stuff than what one can do in a throw away micro transactions based app on a phone.


        More good apps are always welcome, but desktop pcs and laptops are no in need of mobile apps at all, i don't ever say oh man, if only i had all the mobile apps i only use to waste 5 minutes in between on my computer!!!

        There are some, for me less than a hand ful actually useful mobile creation/work apps and around the same nr of mobile games i'd be quite all right with having on a desktop/laptop, too (if their whole ui/ux/input setup etc gets adapted for it), but not like i'm missing out on anything because they are not there.

        Because in reality, yeah, most people just use their phone and arm tablet and laptop and desktop and console and all whenever each device makes more sense for what they want to do in that moment how, no need to shoehorn all mobile apps into all device form factors, people use more devices, not less or a single one.


        i just would have liked Apple doing the convergence thing mostly because touchscreens and pencil support is actually something that would really be quite beneficial on macs, too.

        I'd very much like to use the pencil in my pro desktop creation apps.

        • nbplopes

          In reply to Ugur:


          I don’t think Handheld apps are crappy in comparison with desktop/laptop apps. They are actually becoming very good.. Some even working better and faster than their counter parts in the laptop space with supposedly more powerful hardware.


          For me there is no need to bash neither desktop/laptop or handheld apps to strike a point for one or the other. Arguing that something is better because everything else is worst is never convincing, and usually as the tendency to backfire sooner or later.


          Notice that I’ve used the term Handheld not mobile? Because handheld, like laptop are just two cases. Mobile computing is much more than can be offered by Laptop and Phones or Tablet devices. We also have the handsfree. WiFi routers for instance its part of the mobile computing universe, are mobile networks.We will see many kinds of devices and services facilitating mobile computing. The next mostly easily romper-te-ias is the smartwatch., but there will be more. The very case of smartspeakers it’s supporting mobile computing inside a strict space such has a house, totally hands free.


          The difficulty I see for MS future is how Nadella plans to tackle the edge when that edge is proxyed by others platforms.


          The recent news of MS supporting a flavor of Linux for some kinds of edges, maybe soon will MS use that kind of reasoning to decide and to offer a MS flavor of Android to tackle a specific kind of edge. Don’t know. After all, WIndows is not very good in the Handheld edge either is it?


      • truerock

        In reply to nbplopes:
        Some good points. I'll give you an A+ for effort.

        You finished by saying something about "Windows ARM". You should note that Apple will be moving their desktops and notebooks to ARM in a year or so.


    • mariusmuntensky

      In reply to FalseAgent:

      I don't know... what is so unbearable that many users have had enough of MS crap already?? This is not a MS delusional fanboy site like WC where every Jason/Zac article is another prophecy of pink unicorns and gold fish flying

      • rameshthanikodi

        In reply to mariusmuntensky:

        It's unbearable because it's overblown. Just the fact that UWP apps exist pisses off people. How is Windows supposed to go anywhere with people like this? You guys are a vocal minority. Millions of Windows users don't say anything about UWP because that's how inoffensive it really is.


        This isn't a fanboy site, but this isn't a 'i'm-right-microsoft-is-wrong' site either. There will be people who disagree, but understand that Microsoft isn't your bitch. You know what's worse than Zac Bowden prophecy? Random user prophecy. The whole 'microsoft must do it my way or else they'll die' thing is tired - we've seen this whining since Windows XP - and wrong.

        • Ugur

          In reply to FalseAgent: don't put everything in one pot there =) I totally agree with your sentiment that on mist websites there is a very active tiny minority who will argue for anything Apple does and says as if it was totally right and fact, even when most regular users would see that thing as bullshit, no matter if they use Apple devices or not.
          And at the same time there is a bigger percentage of people more critical about other companies, or maybe just a smaller minority of as vocal "everything this company does is A OK and awesome!!".

          But that does not make UWP apps suck any less =) Like the Skype UWP version is one of the worst ideas ever and will be the NR 1 reason most computer users will switch away from Skype if MS tries to continue to force push the UWP version onto computer users.
          UWP apps are not talked down for no reason, there are many very very valid reasons to talk them down, in a nutshell because they lack most seen as basic but completely to be expected functionality of desktop apps and so they reduce usability and functionality people expect massively.
          Like as one very simple but obvious example: In the UWP version of Skype, on my high end desktop pc btw, i can't even scroll up or down smoothly in a long conversation, jumping or scrolling using the scroll bar around in the app freezes and crashes the app.
          It doesn't even support basic things like selecting a block of text, one has to select one message at a time. Many many such things of basic to be expected functionality on a mature desktop OS does not work in UWP apps. It is really just shit in current form =)

          As a developer i can also tell you that deploying UWP apps from most cross platform middleware takes way longer due to the cross compilation going on and a lot of things havng to get stripped out and there are many major limitations of functionality one can't use in UWP apps and many of those imply having to go less well performing ways, hence why many UWP apps which are actually a bit more in depth (like most games) are more limited and perform worse in pure UWP form.

          I could go on, but yeah, if MS wants people to not moan about UWP, they'd have to have made it better architected and thought and implemented through to not have all those additional limitations next to the intended walled guarden security arguing one.
          They didn't, hence why most people now, if they deploy more in depth stuff on the store at all, usually do it with containerized desktop apps instead of going limited UWP route only.


        • Stooks

          In reply to FalseAgent:

          "Millions of Windows users don't say anything about UWP because that's how inoffensive it really is."


          Hundreds of millions of Windows users have no idea what UWP is. Slightly less than hundreds of millions of Windows users have never used the store either.


          The typical Windows user is indifferent about Windows in 2018. It is something that some people have to use to do some form of computing, most likely at their job. Outside of the Microsoft fanboys....no one hates or loves Windows, they simply do not care....unless it does not work.


          Now ask those same people about their smartphones and you will see people care because THAT is their primary computing device by far.

    • skane2600

      In reply to FalseAgent:

      "As far as I can tell, people actually want iOS apps on their Macs. Just like the addition of Android apps to ChromeOS which people are supposedly dying to switch to."


      So, what is your evidence that either of these things are true?


      When you say things like "Time Cook isn't very bright" you're contributing to the "everything on the internet seems to end up like this" problem you seem concerned about. Besides name-calling and worse has been common on this site for years. Just ask Karma.

      • rameshthanikodi

        In reply to skane2600:

        The adoption of chromebooks is a trend. And of course, Google's mission to reduce Windows into Chrome machines that do everything via web services is already somewhat a reality for many, along with the majority of phones out there serving as a gateway drug into their app platform. You'd be a fool to overlook this.


        Many OSX-focused sites like Macworld, Appleinsider and 9to5Mac have been reporting with great interest about iOS apps on the Mac. Even if iOS apps don't come to the Mac, people absolutely wanted iOS features like Siri and an App Store on the Mac. There is somewhat of a consensus among the Mac enthusiast/loyalist userbase for greater feature parity between the two platforms, many Apple loyalists just want one version of Apple maps to learn and deal with. They would love to use iOS's Music app instead of iTunes. So on and so forth.


        Let say, even if this doesn't happen, we all know that Apple will turn the iPad into their main 'computer' line - because people continue to buy them in great numbers - relegating the Mac to sort of a niche market. So this isn't just a Windows thing. You either get on with all this, or just admit that you are actually part of a niche. Bitching about little things like how Windows 10 has an additional app platform and giving it nonsense labels like 'dumbing down' and 'compromising' is just totally out of sync and doesn't register.


        Also, when I made that comment about Tim Cook, I wasn't insulting him, I elaborated that he isn't the leader with wisdom some people are making him out to be despite occupying steve job's shoes. It isn't a knock, that's just what he really is. I should have worded it better.


        Lastly...karma is a borderline troll blinded by his own self-justified and irrational hatred, who often doesn't contribute to discussions, gets facts outright wrong, repeats the same thing over and over again like a broken record without anything new to say, even if its off-topic, because he's shown himself to have somewhat of a keyhole worldview. Despite that, the worst i've seen is people asking him to shut up (understandably), not name-calling.

    • Ugur

      In reply to FalseAgent:

      Exactly, some portion of Apple device users and of course and of course paid Apple PR are just publicly reiterating every Apple PR statement as if to underline it was a fact, while of course most times one would just have to ask 10 regular users to see that no, the exact opposite is the case.

      As was the case when Apple talked down smaller tablets, larger phones, using keyboard and pen on a tablet/convertible etc etc.

      Then, Apple usually on most of those things sees that the userbase does not agree with them to a large part, or in some cases they knew that right up front and just talked down the competition while they had no fitting offering to challenge it on those ends and voila, a few years later we get exactly the thing they had talked down for years as being a bad idea.

      Then the fanboys and paid marketing can still argue that hey, it hadn't made sense back when they said it, but makes sense now ("with their unique implementation" which so often is not very unique at all).


      I used macs next to windows pcs for many years and still do so where they are a good offering (just in the last few years their macs are not a good offering/total package so i can't upgrade my existing ones), but yeah, those types of attitudes are just meanwhile so obvious and lame.

    • Stooks

      In reply to FalseAgent:

      "Tim Cook isn't very bright"


      So look at your next pay stub, then compare it to his. Who is not very bright?


      Like you said he a business guy with specialty in logistics and supply chain, some say the best there is. He is not a engineer. Under Tim Cook Apple is printing money and in fact growing.

  3. obarthelemy

    Makes sense. iOS works because it's simple (and even curated), MacOS works because it's rich, versatile, complex.


    Also, that doesn't mean that the 2 won't get somehow closer.

  4. Jeffery Commaroto

    “I generally use a Mac at work and an iPad at home.” In other words when Tim Cook needs to get business work done he doesn’t go for the iPad.

    • SvenJ

      In reply to Jeffery_Commaroto: Did you miss the part "“And I always use the iPad when I’m traveling."? I imagine he does do work when travelling. Whether you do work on the Mac in iWorks, Office or Google Docs on the web (Jobs forbid), you can access and manipulate that work on an iPad. Maybe you don't want to engage in exhalted creation, but you can get work done.
      As far as Paul's last dig "You’d love a 2-in-1, too, Tim. Just saying." Not sure anyone would love a 2-in-1 running MacOS. Without touch or pen, it would be rather dysfunctional.


  5. Harrymyhre

    a flat surface in a cafeteria affords itself to laying things on.


    A door handle is used to open a door.


    A computer display in the 21st century is supposed to be touchable. 1965 color tv was not touchable.


    Swiping and tapping computer screens has now become instinct for the majority of people.


    It’s called direct manipulation. Apple coined the phrase in 1984. But they only support it on iPhones and iPads.


    You don’t want users having to guess which screen can be tapped and which one cannot be tapped and touched.

  6. Mr. Smith

    Wow Paul,


    i haven't visited the comments section in while, makes me sad. Used to rely on more rational, soundly rooted perspectives but that’s gone. IDK, maybe because Tim Cook is the subject here, oh well.

  7. chrisrut

    Good grief. That borders on Balmer-esque. "I don't think that's what user's want." Okeydokey...

  8. Ugur

    I don't mind too much about whether Apple puts iOS apps on Macs or not by itself.

    Some would be cool to have on both as a user, but as developer, it would likely just mean Apple would make it so again that one "can" offer the app for the same price on all Apple devices which then means that users automatically expect there to be a single pay for using it on all, which then means unless one does subscription (and even likely then) it doesn't bring a huge lot if anything for most developers.

    As a user i can also only imagine few iOS apps that would be great in the form they are right now on Macs unless developers would introduce a second control and UI scheme adapted for mouse and keyboard usage.


    What was mostly appealing about these rumors to me was that they implied to me that then that would mean Macs would get touchscreen support finally and with that likely also Apple pencil support and that aspect, yes, that one i would have liked a lot.


    Apple for a good number of years now still tries to reek out that itty bitty bit more profit margin per each device category, so for the mac laptops then cuts away most commonly used ports, replaced the state of the art best keyboard and trackpad with a way worse version and in several of the devices even reduced the battery capacity etc.

    To the outside the argument was hey, thinner and lighter over everything else, to me that never made sense, because cutting down functionality and usability so much for having it 3mm thinner? Not much gain to me there at all besides higher margins per device profits wise for Apple.

    But if they would finally make the screen touchscreen and allow folding it over and/or detaching it and it having pencil support, yeah, then for once the 3 mm thinner and these few grams lighter aspect would actually become way more useful for a laptop/convertible, too.


    And yeah, overall i like drawing with the Apple pencil most of all styluses i tried (don't ask about the stupid way one charges it or other such aspects =) ), i would love it if one could use it on macbooks and desktop macs, i'm just not into using it that much on an iPad because it doesn't have most apps i actually create art in.

  9. dstrauss

    Translation - until we are completely convinced 2-in-1 sales will equal or exceed the selling price of two devices to the same person, no dice!

  10. ben55124

    We're happy with where our platforms are at -- said Microsoft in 2007 and Apple in 2018.

  11. Stooks

    Apple needs to make two changes. The first one is the most important. Allow the "OPTION" for a pointing device on a iPad (mouse/trackpad). Second and less important have floating Windows on a iPad.


    Just allowing a pointing device would kill off another wave of computer users (Windows or Mac) in a hurry. Doing both would increase the number of computer defectors.


    I know many iPad users that love their iPad but when it comes to "real work" do not use their iPad because of the lack of mouse support. They can live with the other major limitation, full screen apps with all of the funky split screen/changing apps etc of iOS but they can't deal with the lack of mouse support.


    I know for me that I would probably only take my 12inch iPad Pro on vacation if it had mouse support and not my MacBook Pro as well.

    • Ugur

      In reply to Stooks: While i would welcome mouse and floating windows support on iPads, too, i feel like it has pretty much levelled out to large degree regarding which (former) computer users could "defect" to really only using an iPad like ARM apps only tablet.
      In short: either one needs desktop apps and games, or one doesn't.
      For the later camp, yeah, a bit more usability/workflows addition of desktop computers could just make them fully convert over.
      But for the first camp, people who use desktop productivity and entertainment software, well, they will never be fine with an iPad alone as long as it doesn't run their desktop apps and games or iPad apps in whole would be on a level where they could replace their desktop apps and games nicely, and that doesn't happen as the app store enforces a free to play model where lots of devs can't make a sustainable income with any paid up front more in depth and to be longer term supported product.

      On another note: i always find that demand or looking for how many people completely "defected" windows pcs and macs for arm tablets like an iPad a weird thing. I mean who besides Apple's marketing department really cares and really thinks (or says thinks) that happens at all?
      It's a bit delusional at best.
      The reality is most people use more device form factors than they ever have regarding computing devices and that will likely just continue to grow further for a good while, the opposite of getting boiled down to a single device for all usage.
      Anyone i know in the western world who used a computing device and still has a need for any uses several.

      The theoretical picture where a user switches away from all devices he/she has/could have to a single one is an extremely rare exception in reality besides in very poor/low income places where people can not afford more than one device at best, and those are usually not the places one has to look for Apple devices as those are in most categories among the most expensive options.

      Some keep repeating on and on how desktop/laptop full desktop apps and games running computers are a thing of the past, hey, that's only legacy stuff which will not exist in the future!! Noone works on desktops apps and games, amirite?!?!?
      they keep repeating as if it had any factual backing.
      The reality is most of any in depth content creation as well as any indepth games is very much happening on pcs and there is no end in sight for this at all, as the app store models on the mobile app stores just don't provide most developers a sustainable model where they could even finance working on such more in depth things longer term.

      When looking at statistics/numbers, one also always has to apply a reality check filter regarding what those actually mean. Like: yes, most content creation and game consumption happens on mobile devices, because most of the time is spent there. But ask most people what content they create there and it's usually a FB/Instagram/Twitter post or a short youtube video and most of those people would say they still use a computer for more in depth work and in depth gaming (if not a console (too)), so most people despite having a lot of screen time if not the clear majority of their daily screen time on mobile devices (and i include arm tablets there which don't support desktop apps and games) but most of those people also see that screen time as throw away screen time and see the clear need and use for laptops and desktops or alternatively at least a console or yet another form factor when it is about more in depth consumption/creation.

      Even Paul is a bit deluded there, as he plays on xbox he seems to see his computer as nothing else than a work device and treats it like hey, that's the device to get things done, i don't even want any entertainment and that skews his view to see it like no exciting new entertainment apps/games would be created on windows, like it was legacy only and not hot new stuff progressing.
      While in reality of course the pc is very much the platform delivering and allowing the most cutting edge technology using form of anything running on any computer, so it is where pretty much all the technical and graphical progress happens, not just for games.
      And regarding productivity focus apps, it's complete nonsense that those would be like legacy only on pcs and nothing exciting developed anymore either, the exact contrary is the case, there is a vibrant developer community making lots of the highest end productivity and creation focussed apps and very regularly updating them, there is just not a big hype buzz about them unless you're in the circle of users for those apps because it is well established what they are and so it just happens without fanfare in the form it was on iOS App Store while it was a thing a few years ago which hot new iOS app is out this week (which has largely died down like any app related thing has become largely less interesting on the mobile app stores as we got used to their just being a constant flood of free to play milking apps, most meanwhile see them as throw away commodity they may invest time into since "free" but actually care about longterm very little)


      • Stooks

        In reply to Ugur:

        Your reply is all over the place. Go back to my post where I said "OPTION" as in don't change the touch UI on iPad's just offer the OPTION of mouse/trackpad.


        The apps for lots of people are already there (on the iPad) the OPTION of a mouse/trackpad is not. Using a word processor on a iPad is available today. Use Pages, Word or Google Docs, all of them work fine for 90% of users and their needs for this type of application. What is not there is the ability with a mouse/trackpad to edit and manipulate those documents. Yes you can do it with touch but not as well as you can do that with a mouse/trackpad.


        To your point there are some apps on the iPad that are not as good or can't be as good under the current iOS/hardware as they are on the Mac. I use OmniGraffle all the time on the Mac for network diagrams. There is a iPad version that can do most, but not all of what the Mac version can do and without mouse support the iPad version is relegated (form me) as a view only/very minor update app.


        For those that still use a computer for those typical consumer computing functions, web surf, email, light photo manipulation etc the computer works but so does the iPad...but the computer has the OPTION to use a mouse which for many makes a difference.


        Apple just needs to add the option.

  12. dontbe evil

    like he shooted down surface pro devices few years ago...

    • Ugur

      In reply to dontbe_evil: That's actually a very good point. Apple shots down things repeatedly and even completely discredits them until, until they have their own implementation ready to present.
      Smaller tablets, larger phones, keyboard and pen usage on a tablet/convertible etc etc.
      A very long list.
      If there is any single person at Apple left who knows what they are doing (and i am very convinced there are many), OF COURSE they have a convergence OS/option for running iOS apps on the macOS desktop in the works for years. And of course they also experiment with touchscreen and pen supporting macs.
      So to me it just seems very obvious they don't have either ready in the form they'd like to ship it yet and hence meanwhile discredit the concept to the max, because yeah, that's what they very usually do.


      • skane2600

        In reply to Ugur:

        I think their change in approach is really about going from Jobs to Cook. Jobs for example recognized that a small tablet wouldn't cut it as a PC replacement which what his vision for the iPad was. Likewise, he probably thought that adding a keyboard and mouse would simply render an iPad as a kind of crude laptop.


        You may be right that Apple has been working on a convergence option for years but is there really any solid evidence that this is the case? Or are people just projecting their own expectations on to Apple?


  13. Stooks

    Best approach IMHO. The Surface Pro is a OK tablet with no tablet apps and a OK PC with a funky keyboard that can't handle any kind of real load with out overheating/throttling.

  14. Tony Barrett

    He got it right with the 'you begin to make trade-offs and compromises' line (MS need to listen to that one), but the rest is just PR bull that they drop in on every interview. It's almost like they have an ear-mic permanently connected to their PR department!

  15. fishnet37222

    I must be in the minority who believes that PCs should remain PCs and mobile devices should remain mobile devices. One is used for content creation and the other is used for content consumption.

    • VancouverNinja

      In reply to fishnet37222:

      Nothing wrong in concept but is is 2018 and cross platform/device development is the right direction for everyone. Apple is living in a very profitable ivory tower. I personally think their decline has already begun, but they are so big that it will not become apparent for quite sometime; this stance they are sticking to is a part of the decline.

  16. bulls96

    Loved that last sentence.

  17. VancouverNinja

    Two words "Strategic Blunder". If he is telling the truth Macs will continue their market share decline and relevance.

  18. AmtarcticOasis

    I was looking through the apps on my iPad, which I use daily and for extended periods of time. Apart from perhaps YouTube, there isn’t a single app that I have on my iPad that I also want on my MacBook Air. Why would I? I use the MacBook Air for things my iPad can’t do well such as managing my audio library, audio editing, file management, and occasionally light typing work. For everything else I use my iPad and that works very well for me and I suspect works well for just about every other typical user as well. That leaves me wandering who has their hopes and dreams tied in with iOS apps coming to macOS? Certainly not me.

  19. mariusmuntensky

    If that 2in1 would come with the same junk UI and UX like wincrap 10, nope, I don't think he would like it.

  20. Ahmed Nauman Tariq

    Actually he's trying to say:

    * If things are running smoothly, let them run smoothly. *

  21. Angusmatheson

    There are a lot of medical iOS apps that don’t really exist on PC or Mac (or Android). Probably also true for games and other categories. Although using a keyboard and mouse GUI based program on touch is painful, Windows 10 has shown us using touch based with mouse and keyboard works fine. I would love the Mac to stay the Mac, but to be able to use Mac apps and iOS apps.

  22. skane2600

    What can iOS apps do that can't be done as well or better by MacOS programs (other than those that are specifically designed for mobile scenarios)? What's the business case for Apple allowing iOS apps on Macs?

    • Jorge Garcia

      In reply to skane2600:

      Answer: Young people...and more "simple" people than serial tech blog commentators.

      • skane2600

        In reply to JG1170:

        So you think your stereotypical young people and "simple" people would be willing to buy a Mac under any circumstances? Now real, non-stereotypical people might buy a Mac but probably to do things that a Mac excels at rather than things they already do on their iPhones.

        • Jorge Garcia

          In reply to skane2600:

          I would easily bet that 50%+ of MacBook buyers do so because it is the ONLY option Apple gives them, and they simply MUST buy Apple. If there were an option offered running a flavor of iOS that borrowed the "productive feel" of MacOS, but was still touch-screen and utilized iPad software, that would satisfy the Lion's share of current MacBook buyers.

          • skane2600

            In reply to JG1170:

            The idea that 50% of Mac users bought one because they HAD to buy Apple is the most extreme of the Apple fanboy theory I've heard expressed. If they really were such lemmings there's no reason why Apple would have to bother altering the MacOS, since their customers will continue to buy Macs regardless because they HAVE to.

          • Stooks

            In reply to JG1170:

            I agree. My Mom and dad both have Mac's and iPad's. If you gave them mouse support for the iPad I bet they would not use their Mac anymore. Everything they use is on both, but the mouse/keyboard input is more natural to them.

    • lvthunder

      In reply to skane2600:

      All the new apps are on iOS and not MacOS. That's why people want to run iOS on a Mac.

      • skane2600

        In reply to lvthunder:

        So, for what period are you claiming that there's not new programs for MacOS? When did that change occur?

        • SvenJ

          In reply to skane2600: About the same period for which there are no new apps for Windows of any significance. Began about the time smartphones became ubiquitous. Not that there aren't great Windows/MacOS applications being updated, there just isn't anything particularly new, save some re-wickered existing stuff to take advantage of new form factors/input paradigms, touch/pen. Mobile/smartphone apps are being created at a breakneck pace. Won't suggest they are better than what is out there, but the shear volume makes people believe PCs have stagnated.


          • skane2600

            In reply to SvenJ:

            You can't prove a vague claim about MacOs by referencing an equally vague claim about Windows.


            Of course more new apps are made for mobile because they haven't had decades to build up. I also think most people realize there's a higher percentage of junk apps on mobile than there has been on the Mac and Windows.

    • PincasX

      In reply to skane2600:

      Since you were concerned about building the case about Mike being a habitual liar I suggest your read his comment above. He is, once again, just making shit up.

    • obarthelemy

      In reply to skane2600:

      "What can iOS apps do that can't be done as well or better by MacOS programs"


      1- be the exact same as the ones I know from my iPhone and iPad and require 0 extra learning effort, 0 workflow change

      2- it's the other way round: what can Mac apps do that justify having to learn a whole new OS and dealing with it's exponential complexity and dangers

      3- for most people, iOS is enough, is known, is liked. So you're asking an irrelevant question.

      • skane2600

        In reply to obarthelemy:

        Those people who have never used a Mac and for whom an iPhone or an iPad provides all they need, definitely shouldn't by a Mac even if it ran iOS apps. For those people it would be redundant to own both.


        What Apple understands and apparently Microsoft doesn't, is that satisfying your existing customers for a particular product should be the priority. Microsoft tried to leverage their existing customer base to promote their mobile efforts through Windows 8 and it failed miserably. All it did was harm their reputation with their customers. Had MS taken an IOS-like approach, the worst that could have happened was that their mobile efforts failed in that case also, but at least they wouldn't have annoyed their primary customers.

        • obarthelemy

          In reply to skane2600:

          I thought what Apple had was the intelligence and courage to create whole new categories of products. In this case that would be make us realize the legacy PCs, OSes and ecosystems over-serve an overwhelming majority of computer users, even those that need a big screen, a lappable device, and/or a pointer. iOS laptops and desktops would be perfect for my mom, my niece, my TV PC, my console PC...

          • skane2600

            In reply to obarthelemy:

            Apple tried to do what you suggest. If Jobs wasn't the first one to coin the phrase "Post-PC era" he certainly was the earliest famous person to use it. It's also worth noting that keyboards, mice and small screens were never part of his vision for the iPad. He didn't want to create a laptop-light, he believed that touch was all that was required.


            What he didn't realize (or perhaps, realized but didn't admit publicly) was that a solely touch-based device wouldn't be adequate for some worthwhile tasks.


        • Ron Diaz

          In reply to skane2600:

          This x 1000

          Windows went off the rails with Windows 8 and MS still hasn’t been able to get it back on track. In trying to “save” Windows they did more damage to Windows than anyone believed possible.

    • dontbe evil

      In reply to skane2600:

      funny that everybody here complains about UWP against Win32... and now suddenly ios apps are the best for everything

  23. jimchamplin

    Meh. 2-in-1s aren't everything they're cracked up to be IMO. I've bought two and both of them now spend 100% of their time in notebook mode. It's just a PITA to disconnect them, or they're too heavy and ungainly if they're the type that flip over.


    I tried to like 'em, and YMMV, but for me just gimme a computer and a real tablet. Not a PC that pretends to be a shitty tablet.

  24. NT6.1

    For once, Timmy is right. A desktop/laptop OS should act like one. That's why I think macOS and Linux is in a better place than Windows 10. Windows 10 is a solid OS. But it could be better without the touch UI for all users, even if they're on a non-touch device.

    • SvenJ

      In reply to NT6.1: I would argue that the majority of business/professional applications, including Office, along with Access, Visio, Project, and others like Adobe, Visual Studio, Photoshop do not have a Touch UI, regardless of the fact you can touch the screen and get a reaction. They are frustrating to use with touch, because they really aren't designed for it, they just 'support' it. This IMHO, was the reason for the dismal adoption of the original XP Tablet edition devices. They had pens and touch, and 2-in-1 and convertible form factors, but the available apps at the time didn't lend themselves to the new paradigm. The apps that we had then, still don't. There are new apps that do now. I don't mind not touching my touch-screen when it is not appropriate. I also find it useful to be able to interact via touch when that is more convenient, using apps that are designed for that, without having to drag out a different device. I find I actually can use a Surface docked in a desktop environment with keyboard/mouse/34" curved non-touch monitor as well as with the attached keyboard touchpad on an airline tray, and detached, sitting on the couch watching videos, maybe doing some pen sketches. One OS doesn't preclude me using the device in the appropriate configuration and the appropriate applications.


  25. harmjr

    Well this is a Lie.. If not, this is great news it means people will continue to leave Mac. Now what they move too Android/Chrome or Windows... Who knows. Mac app store will soon have people upset that why cant the Mac do that.

  26. nbplopes

    Apple Is not bringing iPad apps to OSX ok. Did not think it was necessary. Don’t really think users are asking for it. But they need to bring mouse support to the iPad. He cannot say users do not want that.


    It would be great if we could use an iMac at the office and an iPad Pro 12.5 when out and about to work in less power demanding stuff, if it supported a mouse. Using back to my mac when needed ... would be just perfect. I would ditch the laptop. It would be the best of both worlds anytime anywhere.


    PS: Cmon Thurrot, the only reason MS wants mobile apps on Windows it’s because MS wants Windows to be an mobile/tablet OS. No one is asking for mobile like apps in Windows 10.

    • Stooks

      In reply to nbplopes:

      "Apple Is not bringing iPad apps to OSX ok"


      There are three rumors floating around out there.


      1. Apple at WWDC release the ability to make there version of "Universal" apps. This rumor is pretty strong with strong evidence. This would allow iOS apps to run on OS X pretty easily and I see this happening.


      2. Apple get rid of iOS and MacOS in favor of one OS that is basically a more advanced iOS. I do not see this happening in the next 5 years if ever and Tim just said it is not so. At some point iOS might get things like mouse support and other abilities and if and when that happens MacOS might just go away...but not for a long time. They day you can create iOS apps on a iPad would be a good indicator of that time arriving.


      3. Apple is going to make its own CPU's and dump Intel in 2020 or starting in 2020. This far off rumor has lead many rumor fueled bloggers to suggest #2 the merging of the OS because they think it will be a ARM chip. That is a serious lack of thoughtfulness. Apple designs its own ARM chips already, customizing it to improve performance when used with iOS. iOS devices lack both space and active cooling limiting what Apple can design because of the form factor. There is nothing stopping them from making a way more powerful ARM chip or ARM/x86 hybrid when they have more space (MacBook/Pro, Mini, iMac etc) that also has active cooling (fans). Making a 10 core CPU or whatever could be done. If anyone can do it Apple has a mountain of cash to do it, to include licensing x86 from AMD or Intel. All that said I am not sure about this rumor because the cost is high, but if done right then they would control much more of the parts and their advancement which could save/make money in the long run.

  27. Bart

    With PWA 's coming to iOS and presumably the Mac, is there a point to now muddy the waters and bring (old) iOS apps to the Mac? Don't want to be THAT guy, but Cook might have a point

  28. Bob Shutts

    Am I the only one who welcomes this? I was dreading watered-down IOS apps on the Mac.

  29. woelfel

    It seems to me that Apple is slowly becoming complacent with them being on "top"...we'll just watch when they finally change their tune as the world evolves.

  30. PincasX

    I don't think this means there won't be an attempt to simplify co-developing iOS/Mac/AppleTV apps it just means the solution won't be to simply allow iOS apps to run on the Mac as they are.


    It is funny though that the team here repeated the rumor as fact and even went so far as to declare it a ripoff of Microsoft's strategy and now that it doesn't seem likely I'm guessing we will see a retraction .... oh who am I kidding, there won't be a retraction that kind of thing is the domain of journalists not bloggers.

  31. Jorge Garcia

    I know of a ton of people who (reluctantly) learned to compute on Windows, then immediately switched their lives over 100% to mobile as soon as it became an option. That doesn't mean they don't miss the precision of a mouse, and the comfort of a keyboard, they just have such disgusting memories of Windows that they'll just choose to sit there on their tiny-screened phones and accomplish the required tasks "the hard way". I am convinced that an iOS device that came in a comfortable clam-shell design, and offered mouse support and the option to do some "traditional" Windowing, would sell like crazy. I also believe there should be a quality Android alternative, basically just like the obscure iView Gemini, but made by Google itself. Yes, I know Chromebooks already exist that can run Android apps to varying degrees, but I continue to believe that the ChromeOS model turns off a large swath lot of people who would in fact embrace an Android or iOS laptop paradigm.

    • PanamaVet

      In reply to JG1170:

      I'm one of those people you don't hear from much. The first PC platform I used for development was a Mac Plus with a 20MB hard drive. From there I moved to Windows and I haven't looked back since.


      Windows has always worked for me. I have used Windows 10 from the beginning to stay ahead of my clients and I think it is fantastic.


      A ton of people you say? That could be four on Cable TV.


      We recently purchased an iPad and a Dell Latitude equipped with a touchscreen and face recognition capable camera running Windows 10. The Latitude cost 20% less.


      My 8 year old granddaughter, a Pro on Android and the iPhone loves the Latitude and Windows 10.


      Therein lies the problem for Apple. Tim Cook is choosing current profit over marketing support for luxury pricing. My granddaughter is a sign and she has an incredible memory.


      Remember the good old days when Apple was virus free? I loved my Mac Plus, a $1,500 Apple trade for my Lisa.


      The main news about the next iPhone appears to be the incredible fantastic stupendous price.




      • Ugur

        In reply to PanamaVet:

        Exactly. Your comment also brings up the very good and valid point so many who decry desktop OS totally miss: That the next generation totally does get and use laptops and desktops, too and understands the value over time.

        Many act like: hey, nah, it's done, the next generation which grows up with touch mobile OS will never use a laptop/desktop.

        While that has already been proven to be complete nonsense for a good number of years.

        My nephew, who is among the first generation where one can really say they grew up using a touch mobile OS before using anything else with a screen, yes, he can use iOS/Android like a pro (if that is even a thing, let's say he can navigate around it fine), but does very much get, like all his friends and schoolmates, that there are laptops and desktops and consoles and what not all else which is a bit more difficult to set up and use but has the way cooler more in depth creation and entertainment stuff on it.

        And that is not just the case fora nephew of a geek uncle who can show him the other devices etc, it is the case for pretty much anyone who doesn't want to ignore the world around us just to preach a single device future where there is none.

    • obarthelemy

      In reply to JG1170:

      Exactly that. Non-IT people (*) around me don't use legacy OSes because they want to, but because they have to, and they have to not even because of the apps but because of the hardware: they need laptops and desktops, which iOS doesn't have and Android has but not officially.

      Overlapping Windows, unsafe apps from who knows whom, a UI utterly different from their base/reference devices (phones and tablets), apps different from the ones on those too, enough rope to hang yourself with several times over every day... aren't features, they're annoyances at best, deal breakers at worst.


      iOS and MacOS shouldn't merge. But there should be iOS desktops and laptops.


      (*) ie people who work in IT or an IT-heavy field such as video, finance, ...

      • Ugur

        In reply to obarthelemy: Look, i don't have much positive things to say about the current direction MS tries to push Windows.
        But that does not mean lots of people are LONGTERM way more excited about the OS of a mobile device than the one of a desktop/laptop device.
        While yes, i can tell from first hand experience and also witnessing it on any friend and family member, that of course, yes, pretty much everyone was excited about modern touch devices and their OS when first introduced and the first few years of them "maturing", because yes, they were initially way more easy to get into and use, to the degree where millions saw it like "this will replace everything else!!!"
        Well, most people meanwhile woke up.
        And realized, after the (a few years long) honeymoon for some of it feeling way more easy and snappy and user friendly to get into and use, well, all the limitations become more and more apparent the more one uses them.
        There are then a lot of things where a lot of people who actually had a need for a laptop/desktop before realize: hey, i still totally have that need/use case.
        Meanwhile after using them a bunch of years, most people then get used to the usability pros of a mobile touch OS, but also it's limitations and hence then are not any more or less really actually excited to use Android or iOS than windows or macOS.
        they just do it longer because it's the device closest to their hand and with most throwaway apps one can waste 5 minutes in between on.
        but most then still also use many other device form factors for other use cases.


    • skane2600

      In reply to JG1170:

      I suspect your "ton of people" are not all that representative of the average user who doesn't see Windows as something to hate. Doing things "the hard way" when you have an superior method at hand (since they already owned PCs) isn't rational, but is consistent with someone who has an emotional issue with their tools.

      • Jorge Garcia

        In reply to skane2600:

        The problem with Windows is that it is a Chainsaw OS that can literally cut through anything (including the user) when most people today just need a butter knife OS, or maybe a butter knife OS with the ability to become a steak knife OS from time to time.

      • Jorge Garcia

        In reply to skane2600:

        I am a graduate of USC, and a (Navy) Veteran of the most recent Iraq War. I have had exposure to THOUSANDS of normal people around the globe and know for a fact that there is almost no love in the World for (Microsoft's take on) Windows, despite there being an appreciation for the ergonomic benefits of a Windowed interface, a mouse, and a real keyboard. Mind you, I personally could not live without MS Windows, but my mother, my father (a successful businessman) my brother, my aunts, my best friend who is a construction engineer, many of my coworkers, and MOST of my buddies from my Navy days have sworn off Windows for good (for personal use), yet I know they would work much more happily and comfortably if they just had a larger screen and a mobile OS that "borrowed" some of the best features of Windows. By features I mean those basic elements that the brilliant PARC engineers invented in the early 70's...most notably the mouse/track-pad/pointer model and the cascading windows which both boost the ability to multitask immensely.

        • Stooks

          In reply to JG1170:

          I could not agree more with what you are saying.


          Everyone in my family on both my side and my wife's side are now on Apple products including Mac's. All of them are in deep. As in they have a iPhone, so type of Mac and a iPad at a min. Most have Apple TV's and some even have the watch. All of them pay for some amount of iCloud storage to sync photos across devices. All of them were Windows users at home at one time. None of them will ever go back. Most of them are completely fine with either Apples iWorks apps or Google's apps to replace Word/Excel/Powerpoint.


          Last night I went to see Hamilton. Since I am in IT and manage my companies MDM solution I tend to look at what people use. It was at least 99% iPhone in that super packed play house from what I observed.

        • Daekar

          In reply to JG1170:

          That's interesting. All the people I know have adopted mobile but even those with minimal needs don't want to give up their PCs because they understand the difference in capability. Even the ones that are technically hapless.

          • Jorge Garcia

            In reply to Daekar:

            Most of those people would give up their legacy PC's in a heartbeat if there was an in-between product that combined the App experience of their mobile devices with the ergonomic/multitasking benefits of tradition PC (full keyboard, mouse/trackpad, basic app windowing.)

            • RobertJasiek

              In reply to JG1170:

              I see lots of comments of the kind "most would give up PCs if there was a hybrid of mobile device, pointing device, full keyboard and flexible windows" but I doubt this is sufficient, even not for those not needing specialised softwares. Still a large percentage uses Android mobile devices but this alone is also not evidence that most want to neglect another aspect: security. Maybe most do not want to spend much time on managing security, however, I think that most also want security. They do not want malware, whose frequency increases.

              Alter the comments to "...optional pointing device, full keyboard, flexible windows AND guaranteed basic security" and maybe I can agree that then most would give up PCs if there was such a hybrid of mobile device.

              • Jorge Garcia

                In reply to RobertJasiek:

                I don't think that security matters much to normal people on mobile. If there were an Android laptop and it started acting "infected", you'd bring it to the techie person in the family, they'd blow everything away, and you start over with you Google account. Almost everything they care about would be restored automatically. You can't quite replicate that "ease or restore" on Windows.

            • skane2600

              In reply to JG1170:

              It's unclear whether a "neither fish nor fowl" approach would be successful. The trade-off between power and simplicity can't be erased simply by adding a keyboard, mouse and windowing.

              • Jorge Garcia

                In reply to skane2600:

                Who knows if it hasn't ever been tried? (Except for the obsucre iView Gemini 2-in-1) To me, it seems like the obvious thing to combine the ergonomic benefits that people love about desktop/laptop PC's, with the simplicity and peace of mind of mobile OS's. You and I, as PC geeks understand full well that there would be massive compromises involved when awkwardly mixing touch-based software into a more traditional interface, but my point is that normal people simply would not care that much if things weren't perfectly optimized, as long as they worked and required not too much learning.

          • Jorge Garcia

            In reply to Daekar:

            Yes, but it's that (unnecessary in 2018) difference in capability that is the problem. Microsoft Windows keeps getting new leases on life simply because Google and apple can't get their act together and make a simple-person's desktop PC. Simply adding mouse/pointer/trackpad support along with some basic windowing to either iOS or Android would add enough desktop-like capability for the average person to completely swear off the "menaces" that are Window and MacOS. That is not to say that more "pro" people would get a rid of their Macs and Windows machines, they wouldn't want to, and the software they need wouldn't allow them to anyway.

        • skane2600

          In reply to JG1170:

          So you've asked thousands of people about how they feel about Windows? Merely being "exposed" to thousands of people doesn't mean much in this discussion.

          • Greg Green

            In reply to skane2600:

            When you’re in the military you are exposed to hundreds of people a year, so thousands is not a stretch in a short career.


            When you’re deployed on a ship you’re exposed to that crew of 150 to 250 people 24/7. They are the only life you have, you get to know them very well.

            • skane2600

              In reply to Greg Green:

              Again, it's not simply about how many people one encounters that's relevant to this discussion but rather how many one has asked for an opinion on Windows. Really, should I even have to explain that?

              • Jorge Garcia

                In reply to skane2600:

                I was on an Aircraft carrier with 5,500 diverse people, a destroyer with about 350, each for several years and MS Windows was the platform that almost everybody needed to use, even if their jobs were not technical. I also was fortunate to visit many countries in Asia and the Middle East, as well as south America and all corners of the US. Of course my feelings are anecdotal and unscientific in nature, but I don't have to run a double-blind study to know how normal people feel about computers.

                • skane2600

                  In reply to JG1170:

                  Your personal "feelings" can't be anecdotal. Evidence can be, but since you obviously didn't discuss Windows with all 5,850 shipmates (or you would have asserted that by now) your anecdotal evidence is limited to the number of people you actually discussed Windows with.


                  I've been as clear as I can be on this issue, so there's no point arguing with you about it further. I'm done.


                  And thank you for your service.

          • Jorge Garcia

            In reply to skane2600:

            You can tell how people feel by simply watching their behaviors and which devices they naturally turn to.

  32. Inspector Gadget

    Probably OK as Microsoft are working full speed to dumb down Windows (no more OneNote full desktop in Office 2019).

    Apple will probably get to a pretty much fully workable IOS about the same time Microsoft get there with 10S.

    I would be happy if Apple would just provide mouse support in IOS. So hate editing text on an iPad with my finger when working on documents with a keyboard connected.

    Not asking for IOS to be changed for the mouse in any great way.

    Available in Android now.

    Get the feeling this basic feature will turn up later as Apple expanding the laptop functionality of IOS with great fanfare!

    Even kids in education once they get past their finger and apple pencil might want to work in words or even spreadsheets on their iPad and make the brilliant deduction that a mouse would be handy.



  33. HellcatM

    I think I hear birds chirping.

  34. ruusterc

    I take him saying that with a grain of salt because there was a lot of times they have said no we are not gonna make a phone we are not gonna make a tablet no we're not gonna make a stylus we're not gonna make a pro iPad these are some examples of things they said they weren't gonna make but ended up making

    • jboman32768

      In reply to ruusterc:


      "It's like we said on the iPad, if you see a stylus, they blew it." - Book of Jobs 3:2010


      So they broke that commandment


      "We’ve done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn’t work. Touch surfaces don’t want to be vertical" - Book of Jobs 10:2010


      This one might be next, there is precedent.


  35. MikeGalos

    Guess they found out how hard it is to actually do a flexible operating system the way Google is learning that lesson. And, of course, being Apple, they're killing the project by pretending they never intended to do it.

  36. rmlounsbury

    I think at the end of the day this focus on OS and convergence isn't really the right space to focus on. We are undergoing a massive shift in computing away from the old traditional desktop OS of yor to a whole new paradigm where ambient computing rules and the cloud fully becomes the primary platform for most devices.


    Arguing over things things like convergence of iOS and MacOS or Microsoft making a play for the one core Windows platform that shifts and changes based on the device is more short sided. I would imagine in many of our lifetimes we will see the end of Windows on desktop and it's replacement with something completely different and possibly that isn't even something from Microsoft. I do believe all of Microsoft's recent moves are correct even if we don't like them.


    Apple could be the biggest dinosaur of them all with no real cloud or AI play so to speak thus far. Google probably has the most future oriented OS with ChromeOS and both Google & Amazon have the strongest plays in AI with Micorsoft a little bit behind them. In a world where everything is a computer a desktop OS doesn't mean much.

  37. will

    I don't think his statements had anything to do with the app side, but more to do with the hardware side of things. I would guess that there is still a lot they can do to improve the app experience for both, but still keeping them separate.

  38. ReformedCtrlZ

    I would imagine they don't want to merge the products because it would cost them too much in terms of how well the two platforms operate. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see a mac air running a version of iOS with window app and mouse support. and see MacOS become a power user platform while iOS takes over on mobile products as iOS is built out with more capabilities. So they aren't converging the platforms as building them to match and moving the platform focus. It's a slow way to go about such a transition but its definitely less work technologically and since Apple doesn't do anything fast its very much in line with what they might do.

  39. Alastair Cooper

    I'm still an 'old-fashioned' user, I use a ThinkPad without a touchscreen and a traditional desktop and never a tablet (unless you count my 6" smartphone which I don't use much). I'm only 30 . . .

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