Fiasco
- Paul Thurrott
- Nov 02, 2018
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99
Microsoft’s inability to ship a functional version of Windows 10 version 1809 is embarrassing. Its inability to communicate what’s happening is unacceptable.
Complaining about this kind of ineptitude is beyond obvious. So rather than go on an extended rant, I’ll simply highlight the schedule that Microsoft created for itself.
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October 2. One month ago today, Microsoft announces the availability of the October 2018 Update, which will upgrade Windows 10 to version 10. It did this weeks early, skipping over the normal Release Preview phase of testing. For some reason.
October 2. The software giant also explains how users could get the Update immediately “Our goal is … provide a great update experience for all,” Microsoft’s John Cable explained.
October 2. Microsoft also implores developers to start developing on Windows 10 October 2018 Update today, noting that the Windows 10 version 1809 SDK was now available.
October 3. Microsoft touts the accessibility benefits of Windows 10 version 1809.
October 3. Despite the problems with the October 2018 Update, the Windows Insider Program pushes forward with testing of the next Windows 10 version, rather than waiting for this version to be fixed. Build 18252 is released.
October 4. The first widespread reports of problems with the October 2018 Update emerge, raising questions about why Microsoft shipped this so early, especially since Insiders had previously reported all of the issues.
October 4. Microsoft brags about the improvements to Microsoft Edge in Windows 10 version 1809.
October 5. Microsoft recommends that users do not install the October 2018 Update. (The posting was later removed.)
October 6. Microsoft finally pulls the October 2018 Update. As Mehedi writes, Microsoft has a software quality problem.
October 9. Four long days later, Microsoft explains that it had “paused” the rollout of the October 2018 Update because of “isolated reports of users missing files after updating.” ” While the reports of actual data loss are few (one one-hundredth of one percent of version 1809 installs), any data loss is serious,” Microsoft’s John Cable explains. The firm is testing a fix for the data loss bug.
October 16. Microsoft pushes a fixed version of Windows 10 version 1809 to Windows Insiders in the Slow and Release Preview rings. This indicates that it should be ready to go public soon.
October 17. Microsoft releases yet another new build of the next version of Windows 10, build 18262.
October 23. We learn about a second data loss bug in Windows 10 version 1809. The embarrassments just keep adding up.
October 24. Another week goes by and Microsoft releases yet another new build of the next version of Windows 10, build 18267.
October 31. Yep, you guessed it. Another week. Another new build the next version of Windows 10, build 18272.
So. Here we are, literally one month after Microsoft first issued the October 2018 Update for Windows 10. There’s no fixed version of the Update available publicly. But Microsoft has inexplicably released four builds of a future version of Windows 10. And has remained silent since October 9 on the fate of Windows 10 version 1809.
Right. This is a fiasco.
Conversation 99 comments
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SherlockHolmes
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>So whatelse is new? Is it really surprising to you that MSFT is unable to inform their consumers whats going on? </p>
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Paul Thurrott
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359685">In reply to SherlockHolmes:</a></em></blockquote><p>I'm surprised at the duration of the silence, for sure. Also surprised that known dumb behavior keeps happening over and over again. Who doesn't learn from their mistakes?</p>
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gardner
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359701">In reply to paul-thurrott:</a></em></blockquote><p>Oh the softball questions you toss…..</p>
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jprestig
Log in to Reply<p>I upgraded my main machine to 1809 the day that it released. I was lucky, and did not notice any data loss. But now I feel somewhat "stuck" on this version. What if there are deeper issues with it, that are causing this massive delay? Am I, and others on 1809, even safe running this version?</p>
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navarac
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359686">In reply to jprestig:</a></em></blockquote><p>I tend to image a production machine that is running OK before getting it anywhere near the next release. At least there is a fall-back then.</p>
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wright_is
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>The team working on the next version of Windows 10 has nothing to do with the current version. This is very common in large development projects, both software and physical products.</p><p>The other thing is, only so many people can work on a single bug. Putting both teams on correcting the same bug is a waste of time and resources, as over half of the team will be sitting twiddling its thumbs.</p><p>When it is something major, like the security improvements in XP, in general, then you can take people from other projects, but for a "minor" issue like this one – it is a "simple" fix in one small set of routines, you probably can't have more than half a dozen people working on it, without getting in each other's way.</p><p>That doesn't excuse the lack of communication or the poor quality of the release, in general. But what do you expect the other team to do, whilst they are waiting for the current release team to fix their problems?</p>
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Paul Thurrott
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359688">In reply to wright_is:</a></em></blockquote><p>The Insider Program is testing both the fixes and the next version of Windows 10. In saner days, Microsoft halted new development when a problem like this happened. These days, there's no credibility and no accountability. It doesn't matter what "teams" do what.</p>
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wright_is
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359700">In reply to paul-thurrott:</a></em></blockquote><p>On the other hand, those on skip-ahead can't test the current fixes, because they are already beyond 1809 and the "skip-ahead" development team are still working, Microsoft hasn't sent them home until the problems with 1809 can be fixed.</p>
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gardner
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359706">In reply to wright_is:</a></em></blockquote><p>The skip ahead testers (which includes me) may not be able to test, but there seems to be plenty of bandwidth inside Microsoft to push out several new releases of the next version to them, yet there is no corresponding bandwidth, either in terms of explaining to the public the situation, or in pushing to testers their best version things to test. </p><p><br></p><p>I would love to believe that there is some sort of huge push inside Microsoft to triage all the existing bugs and take ownership of some quality, but their radio silence is hard to interpret. And there is no good reason we should have to listen to static.</p><p><br></p><p>Courage, Microsoft, be open about what is going on, what you are doing to fix it, and what you are doing to investigate the failures that lead to this.</p>
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wright_is
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359715">In reply to gardner:</a></em></blockquote><p>Oh, I agree that the lack of communication around 1809 and the seeming lack of activity in putting a fixed version out there is concerning and worrying. It <em>is</em> a complete fiasco.</p><p>I am just pointing out that the cadence of the skip-ahead has nothing to do with this and altering the cadence wouldn't help the current situation. These are two separate teams working on two, essentially, different products. To concentrate on the 19H1 skip-ahead branch still being released is just clouding the real issue, which is Microsoft's lack of communication or transparency on the issues with 1809.</p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/190383/fiasco#359706" target="_blank" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><em>In reply to wright_is:</em></a></p><blockquote>. . . <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Microsoft hasn't sent them home until the problems with 1809 can be fixed. . . .</span></blockquote><p>I've been involved in some in-house development projects, and documentation always suffers. Don't send developers home, ask them to catch up on their documentation.</p>
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gardner
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>Three points: 1) Microsoft is unwilling to be open and honest about what is happening. 2). Microsoft is surprised the reducing testing effort and increased pace of release has reduced the quality of their product. 3). Microsoft is unable to admit that Apple and Android's annual release cycle is saner.</p>
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Paul Thurrott
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359689">In reply to gardner:</a></em></blockquote><p>Bingo.</p>
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will
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359689">In reply to gardner:</a></em></blockquote><p>I might add a 4th and 5th point: </p><p>4) The current Insider Program is poor way to test new build and needs to be overhauled. </p><p>5) The feedback hub has shown it is a failure with so much data and noise that turns into a popularity contest for features and bugs</p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/190383/fiasco#359746" target="_blank"><em>In reply to will:</em></a></p><p>I was involved in the Office 2003 beta program. That worked a lot better in part because there were dedicated newsgroups restricted to beta program participants, and the Office MVPs could drag MSFT employees (possibly kicking & screaming) into particular discussions which may have gotten into arcana, but were important nevertheless. I paid most attention to Excel, and Excel 2003 (finally) fixed problems which had been lingering for nearly 2 decades, though it left too many other legacy problems unfixed.</p><p>My point is that involving MVPs as moderators and ombudsmen who could bring Office project managers and developers into detailed discussions seemed to work a lot better than the execrable Feedback Hub.</p><p>There used to be a web site which I believe was called something like Make Office Better (or maybe it was just Make Excel Better) which was set up more like a newsgroup/discussion forum which also could generate threads with hundreds of comments on given issues, and those worked as crucibles getting at the core issues. What worked in those others which the Feedback Hub lacks are DETAILS and directed discussions, that is, people in authority cutting off digressions and asking for more particular information. It won't work for an Insider program numbering in the millions, but it may work a lot better for a program numbering in the tens of thousands.</p>
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thalter
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>I got 1809 pushed to my Parallels VM (which almost always barfs on new Windows releases) the day it came out, before I had a chance to block it. Luckily it has been working fine.</p>
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waethorn
Log in to Reply<p>Hey Microsoft! Longhorn much?</p>
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Paul Thurrott
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359694">In reply to Waethorn:</a></em></blockquote><p>lol</p>
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dontbe evil
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359703">In reply to paul-thurrott:</a></em></blockquote><p><br></p><p>what about apple watch os update?</p><p><br></p><p>p.s.</p><p>comments notifications still don't work</p>
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A_lurker
Log in to Reply<p>With this pattern recurring with variations every 6 months W10 is loser for home users. Just to much risk of something nasty happening that is fundamentally not the user's fault. MS has to fix this now before the stench gets so bad that many abandon Windows permanently.</p>
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txag
Log in to Reply<p><a href="#359695"><em>In reply to A_lurker:</em></a><em> This is an excellent point. I have avoided using my main Windows 10 machine for nearly a month now. I can do this (having recently retired) because heavy-duty Office applications are no longer a mandatory part of my daily activities. Which then raises the question of whether I need Windows at all.</em></p>
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William Clark
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359695">In reply to A_lurker:</a></em></blockquote><p>A loser for home user? How so? About the only things on my home machine that I would not like to lose are pics and, perhaps, some email messages. But my pics are backed up to Amazon and my email is O365 so I'm pretty much protected. I think most home users could wipe their PC today, reload and never notice any difference. Most people I know keep their photos on their phones or in the cloud. Any other docs I need to preserve are stored on OneDrive or DropBox. </p><p><br></p><p>And what OS will these people move to? MacOS is out there and has been for years and yet I don't see people moving to it in any significant numbers. Probably because Apple hardware is expensive compared to the plethora of less expensive Windows machines. </p>
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Minke
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359853">In reply to waclark57:</a></em></blockquote><p>Home users are already using Google Drive and Gmail, even if their computer came installed with W10. Most of them don't realize they could just ditch Windows entirely and not miss a thing they are doing now, which is all in the Chrome browser using Google stuff. They should just buy a cheap Chromebook, have 100% of the functionality they actually use day-to-day, and save a boatload of money, gain security, avoid update hassles, etc.</p>
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andrey.opohmelkin
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359853">In reply to waclark57:</a></em></blockquote><p><br></p><p>home users moves from PC to phones and tablets. You can show your photos to friends on large screen of your TV using just you phone. How many people are actually need full-size PC at homes these days?</p>
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madthinus
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>Missing from your timeline is the cumulative updates issued to Insiders, but not the public that has got 1809 while it was available. This to me rubs me wrong in such a big way. The whole Seekers concept should not exist and since Microsoft has made the software available to them, they should support them with fixes as it becomes available. ?</p>
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dcdevito
Log in to Reply<p>At work we had to hold off on rolling out Win10 to the remaining machines running Win7 due to firmware issues on our Lenovos (older models), and now we're sort of up against the clock (Jan 2020) to get the updates in. And even moving forward, I just don't know how my firm is going to handle updates twice a year, it's just nuts. All for SaaS apps anyway, makes no sense (for us).</p>
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wright_is
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359718">In reply to dcdevito:</a></em></blockquote><p>Have you looked at going with Enterprise LTSB versions? You only have to plan for upgrades every 18 months / 2 years.</p><p>I've been lucky so far, with a couple of hundred upgrades over the last couple of years, I've yet to see any compatibility problems with older hardware or the software we use. (Well on the normal PCs, there are a couple of older PCs attached to plant equipment stuck on Windows 95/2000/XP, but that is another story.)</p>
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dcdevito
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359735">In reply to wright_is:</a></em></blockquote><p>Believe me, I've told them – they're not quite aware of it and I bang my head against my desk daily lol</p>
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chrisrut
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359735">In reply to wright_is:</a></em></blockquote><p>What he said.</p><p>Add to that: the ongoing updates haven't proven all that big a deal for us, in spite of legacy apps. I console myself that at least we'll never have to do another huge platform jump all in one go: the disruptions from these 6-month updates have been pretty minor; nothing like getting off of XP and onto Win 7, or onto W10 in the first place for that matter. Perhaps that's the point of this – to avoid getting stuck in a technology box-canyon going forward. </p><p>Or maybe they're just dumb. </p>
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Jason Peter
Log in to Reply<blockquote><a href="#359718"><em>In reply to dcdevito:</em></a><em> </em>And even moving forward, I just don't know how my firm is going to handle updates twice a year, it's just nuts.</blockquote><p> Our enterprise has been steadily upgrading to Windows 10 on 70k workstations (about 1/2 way there so far, and should be complete by spring at the latest). I’ve been using it on my workstation since around winter 2016 (one of the benefits of working in IT – automatic “guinea pig” status), and we’ve taken the stance of holding back on the updates as long as is feasible. We are currently on the 1607 version w/ the Edge browser removed (we just use Google Chrome for the most part with IE only when absolutely necessary, as Edge was too incompatible with many of our intranet sites, as well as too unfamiliar for most users). I’m thinking this version is supported with security and bug fixes until 2026, without feature upgrades by design.<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></span></p><p><br></p><p>Point being, there are options for enterprise orgs to avoid having to climb onto the Win10 upgrade hamster wheel. There is just no functional reason for the typical enterprise to upgrade to the 17* versions, and the 18* versions are simply too problematic. And unfortunately, I don’t see that improving anytime soon.</p><p><br></p>
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JerryH
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359718">In reply to dcdevito:</a></em></blockquote><p><br></p><p>Once you get going with it, it is not as hard as you think. We've completely rolled out Windows 10 to approximately 90,000 machines. We have a test program in place with assigned testers for applications. They get the new versions basically a couple of weeks after Microsoft releases them. They then have about 3 months to test their apps and report any issues, get fixes from vendors, etc. Then we send that now 3.5 month old version out in a staggered rollout to production (1/8th of the enterprise per week). We started this with 1607 and have deployed 1703, 1709, and now 1803 this way. It has not been as much of an issue as we originally thought it would be. Sure, a very small handful of problem apps. But not so bad really.</p><p><br></p><p>Oh, we also are in the TAP program so we get basically weekly builds like the Insiders program (except we get the ISO each time) and there are four of us who run those on our main production machine – and we file a lot of bugs against them. Let me tell you 19H1 is pretty rough right now. Every time I put my Lenovo X380 Yoga to sleep and wake it back up later the Trackpoint has rotated so now right moves the cursor down, down moves the cursor left, etc. But you get your bugs filed, get fixes, and away you go.</p>
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generalprotectionfault
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359718">In reply to dcdevito:</a></em></blockquote><p>If you're willing to get into "not officially endorsed" territory, Windows 7 Embedded updates install on Windows 7. That buys you another year. Windows 8.1 buys you until 2023. Otherwise, LTSB is what you're gonna have to look at. Twice a year is ridiculous.</p>
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pargon
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>Paul keeps harping on the release schedule; arstechnica had a great article that explains the schedule really has nothing to do with it. It's the process that's been flawed since windows 95 and is still in use, while google and apple have completely different, more modern build systems to maintain quality throughout the build process. Makes much more sense, but ya know it's easier to just keep pushing an agenda I guess. The builds are forked, why is it any issue that the team responsible for the next version keeps working? Software design and bug fixing isn't a drastically scalable issue….if you have one bug that's a show stopper and the responsible team is working on it, more people won't help. I would think Paul knows that, since he was a developer of some sort at one point. </p>
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Pierre Masse
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359727">In reply to Pargon:</a></em></blockquote><p>An agenda? Really?</p>
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chrisrut
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359727">In reply to Pargon:</a></em></blockquote><p>I have to agree. I can only imagine that what seemed a simple thing ran afoul of one of those "hard computer science problems" that pop up from time to time. It is an inconvenient truth that "fixing" something takes as long as it takes. Occam's Razor, and all that.</p>
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AnOldAmigaUser
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>Perhaps this would be a good time for them to just switch to an annual update schedule. Is anyone chomping at the bit for any of the improvements?</p>
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will
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>If we are being completely honest, do we really expect anything to change from this? </p><p><br></p><p>Yes we will get a blog post talking about how "they found some isolated situations that affected some people, but Microsoft is committed to ensuring you have a good software platform going forward". But will anything change? </p><p>Don't get me wrong, I want the whole system to change and the Insider Program to be jettisoned in its current form. Put new people in charge of the Insider Program and ditch this popularly contest system of unfinished features.</p>
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dontbe evil
Log in to Reply<p>nothing to see here, will be released when ready, we're not in hurry to update</p>
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Jackwagon
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359760">In reply to dontbe_evil:</a></em></blockquote><p>I'm sure it will be, but surely there's a bit of contradiction between "1809" as the release code (suggesting that it's "gone gold" in September 2018) and saying it will be released "when it's done".</p><p><br></p><p>Further, whenever someone insists that there's "nothing to see here", people start assuming that there is something to be seen. (Of course, in some cases you have a case of "looking means finding", as well)</p>
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jbinaz
Log in to Reply<p>I agree it's a fiasco, but I have no problem with them continuing to push out insider previews, even if they don't contain the fix for the known data loss issues that are holding 1809 back. I think it's reasonable to assume that users who active enroll in the insider program and are running the preview are aware that a) previews are just that: previews that may be unstable and unreliable, and b) that the fixes may not be implemented in preview builds, and even if they are implemented, they probably aren't fully tested.</p><p><br></p>
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John Jackson
Log in to Reply<p>I think MSFT was so embarrassed when finding the data loss bug had been reported in Insider testing that they assigned one whole person to trawl their telemetry database and triage the reports. Should have the full report by XMAS.</p><p>More positively … maybe the company has taken the position seriously and is constructing a change in strategy which it does not want to rush.</p><p>Or they are looking for someone internally who is good at communication rather than corporate BS: could take a while.</p><p><br></p><p>I am beginning to warm to Mary Jo's '6 months to weed out all the faults' and '6 months for new stuff'. I can remember even in VISTA's day finally sorting out all the errors in Event Manager. Just looked at my current 1803 event log total for the last 7 days: 64 critical errors and 585 non-critical errors!! We know of course why the old RELIABILITY INDEX graph bit the dust.</p>
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FalseAgent
Log in to Reply<p>I think Peter over at Ars Technica is right. The problem might be how they develop Windows. Microsoft has always been like this. The closest they had ever come to perfecting their process was with Windows 8, which was rock solid out of the gate despite all the changes (even with Windows 7, some insisted on waiting for SP1, which is the ultimate windows meme). I really liked the way Steven Sinofsky did things, despite the endless complains from Paul here about the lack of transparency from them, ultimately I really appreciated that the software quality from the Windows team was miles ahead of others like Windows Phone of which I am embarrassed to have been a customer of. </p><p><br></p><p>Too bad, it didn't matter, and the dude lost his job, and apparently at Microsoft, replacing a dude = changing how the entire org works.</p>
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Greg Green
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359770">In reply to FalseAgent:</a></em></blockquote><p>Sinofsky made a product very few liked and apparently even MS knew it was a bomb before it was released. It’s hard to recover from that by saying Well my QA was good.</p><p><br></p><p>Though now we don’t even seem to have that either.</p><p><br></p><p>As someone said, there’s no problem so bad that someone (Nadella) can’t make it worse.</p>
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sevenacids
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359770">In reply to FalseAgent:</a></em></blockquote><p>Well, "never change a running system". In this case, I guess it's "never change a working development process", especially when it comes to a product like Windows. One release in three years seems to be enough. I mean, when you look at what happend to Windows 10 during the last three years, none of the changes were worth a major upgrade every six months.</p><p><br></p><p>I never understood what they gain from a twice-a-year-upgrade schedule.</p>
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FalseAgent
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#360277">In reply to sevenacids:</a></em></blockquote><p>I think Microsoft would need to update Windows at least once a year to keep up with the competition.</p><p><br></p><p>Honestly, twice-a-year would be fine by most people if the updating process was not so disruptive.</p>
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SilentHero117
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>One of Satya's worst decisions as CEO in 2014 was to allow the layoff of testers for the Windows Division and "start a new direction" with the Windows Insider program. Some of you may remember this video: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRV6PXB6QLk" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRV6PXB6QLk</a></p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/190383/fiasco#359772" target="_blank" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><em>In reply to SilentHero117:</em></a></p><p>I'm sure firing the QA people has paid for Nadella's bonuses 1/16 times.</p><p>Nadella is clearly not focused on Windows, perhaps not even interested in Windows. Maybe it's time for MSFT to consider spinning off Windows as a separate company under separate management so that Nadella can concentrate on the IBM 2.0 parts of the business he clearly prefers.</p>
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siv
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359817">In reply to hrlngrv:</a></em></blockquote><p>Brilliant idea! </p><p><br></p><p>I just wish I knew who in MS might be that person, I doubt Bill's interested anymore with his philanthropic endeavours taking centre stage?</p><p><br></p><p>The whole thing has gone backwards since Nadella took over, he's only interested in Cloud and I am sure he sees Windows as a legacy product that had better make some cash soon or will be put out to Grass.</p><p><br></p><p>Needless to say that is why my daily machine is running Linux Mint 19 and I only have Windows running in a VM for development work/SQL Server. Interestingly it is running V1809 and the upgrade went fine, though I did not have any redirected folders. I will have to watch out for the Zip extraction thing though. Mind you I use WinRAR so I suspect I am OK!?</p><p><br></p>
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yaddamaster
Log in to Reply<p>fallout from the breakup of the old Windows and Devices Group? When WDG got split up into "Experiences & Devices" and "Cloud + AI" I was wondering when the first major engineering fallout would emerge. Maybe this is it? Someone or team in "Cloud + AI" didn't communicate to the "Experiences & Devices" group. Well, that and no testers…….</p>
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bart
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>Agree with the fiasco on 1809. Inexplicable and inexcusable. That said, nothing should hold back the next version of Windows. Microsoft always updates previous versions whilst steaming ahead with the next. The fact that this now happens in the same time period a version should launch makes zero difference. </p><p><br></p><p>Let me put it another way. If a car in a garage faces major issues, do you expect the entire garage staff to focus on this one car? Of course not! </p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/190383/fiasco#359792" target="_blank"><em>In reply to Bart:</em></a></p><blockquote>. . . The fact that this now happens in the same time period a version should launch makes zero difference. . . .</blockquote><p>Unless the fixes to 1809 would break things in 19H1 builds, in which case some work on 19H1 might need to be scrapped to roll the 1809 fixes into it.</p><p>Car analogies break down. It's possible to replace brake and exhaust systems in parallel. If Windows 1809 has problems handling Zip files, more precisely, failing to determine when extracting files from Zip files would overwrite files on disk, could that suggest there might be other file overwrite scenarios Windows is now missing? Could that be due to deeper bugs in File Explorer?</p><p>Garage analogies also fail. One car in a garage facing most major issues wouldn't prevent working on other cars . . . unless the major issue were that the car was on fire, in which case other cars, employees and customers would all be in danger. I'd want most employees grabbing fire extinguishers the others directing customers to safety.</p>
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JaviAl
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>More serious is that all of this is applicable, step by step, to Windows Server 2019, which affects large companies, enterprise customers and large accounts.</p><p><br></p><p>Most unacceptable thing is that Microsoft launched, 15 days ago, Exchange Server 2019, which requires Windows Server 2019 that is not available today as Windows 10 version 1809.</p>
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andrey.opohmelkin
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359798">In reply to JaviAl:</a></em></blockquote><p><br></p><p>enterpise migrates to clouds or non-microsoft solution. That Server-Exchange-Outlook mess just unacceptable. Every few years companies have to migrate all their IT infrastructure because of incompatibilities between versions</p>
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Tony Barrett
Log in to Reply<p>There's a general stench coming from the direction of Redmond now, and it's not a pleasant one. MS are so fixated with getting the Win10 numbers up and selling their cloud subscription services or reaping their cut from their app store, they've totally lost focus on what's important, ie a well tested, stable, secure, reliable OS to hold it all together. MS throw new builds out the door like confetti now, relying on keen but untrained 'insiders', many of whom just like to brag they're at the Windows coal face.</p><p>All Windows is about now is features, features, features – anything to attract, keep and extract money from new adopters. Despite what you hear from senior MS staff, Windows is <em>still</em> the cornerstone of everything MS are trying to do – Win10 was designed as a portal to MS services. Without Windows, MS would wither very quickly, and right now, they're testing the patience and resolve of millions of their customers.</p><p>That stench is turning rotten, consumer confidence is at an all time low, enterprises are also now asking questions, and Windows itself is turning into a laughing-stock. </p><p>Despite what MS want, this is only going to accelerate adoption of the Enterprise LTSB/LTSC versions. What companies WANT is a stable OS, without Edge, Cortana and the App Store, and no telemetry collection. They want a version that's patched and maintained just like Win7 with at least 5-10 years support. Infact, most would quite happily stay with Win7 or a refreshed version of it, but that doesn't fit with Microsoft's plans, and MS aren't listening.</p>
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Winner
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359801">In reply to ghostrider:</a></em></blockquote><p>Yes, and that doesn't leave us great choices. As I've said before:</p><ul><li>You can get fantastic Windows PC hardware, but then you have to put up with Windows 10</li><li>You can get a nice OS in Mac OSX, but then you have to pay through the nose for increasingly shitty hardware</li><li>You can get great hardware AND OS in Linux, but then you don't have much commercial software availability</li></ul><p><br></p><p>Pick one of the above.</p>
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Winner
Log in to Reply<p>For all those who downvote our friend karma77, I think he has a point.</p><p>Is Windows a house of cards that is finally starting to collapse?</p><p>I find the behavior of Microsoft to push Windows 10 upgrades on people ~3 years ago reprehensible.</p><p>I have stuck to Windows 7 on my personal desktop machine but use Windows 10 on multiple work machines and my casual laptop.</p><p>The differences are jarring to me:</p><ul><li>windows 7 just works and doesn't intrude on me, doesn't nag me, and gives me choices without restrictions</li><li>Windows 10 is a nuisance. It's interface IMHO is worse. It nags. It ads. It reboots unexpectedly. I can't leave the machine on overnight or it might reboot and close my open files and applications.</li><li>It's supposed to be the "most secure Windows ever" but has the same bugs as earlier versions, plus things like this data loss bug</li></ul><p><br></p><p>I just don't see how Microsoft is doing well on Windows 10. They're a mess. This article is the culmination of a lot of other issues that we put up with, this is perhaps only the most egregious and latest.</p><p><br></p><p>I'm at the point where when my Windows 7 goes out of support, I'm exploring options such as Linux and Mac as I really don't want to go full time onto Windows 10. That's not to say there aren't a few nice new features, but the overall package, for me, is not compelling. YMMV.</p>
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EZAB
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359804">In reply to Winner:</a></em></blockquote><p>I agree with some of what karma77 says, but trying to compare Windows 7 to Windows 10 is completely insane. Windows 10 is much more Secure than 7 ever was. Windows 7 is old and ready to retire!</p>
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Jhambi
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359816">In reply to EZAB:</a></em></blockquote><p>I agree. I never understood why folks cling to windows 7. There are so many under the hood improvements in 10 that make it more optimized for modern hardware. Along with the security enhancements. Not discounting Paul's outline above, there are serious flaws in the release management of current windows.</p>
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Greg Green
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359804">In reply to Winner:</a></em></blockquote><p>Some have suggested going to Win 8.1 when Win 7 expires. With some add ins you can make Win 8.1 look like Win 7 while having all the under the hood benefits of Win 8.1. Win 8.1’s end of life is apparently 2023.</p>
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chrisrut
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>C'mon, where's your sense of humor? We live in a very strange world where humans do many inexplicable things. Trick or Treat!</p>
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Lucas
Log in to Reply<p>My organization tested 1809. It worked great. Then we installed 1809. Edge became non-functional on a number of machines (including mine). Microsoft has no fix.</p><p>This is a product we pay for.</p><p><br></p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/190383/fiasco#359808" target="_blank"><em>In reply to Lucas:</em></a></p><p>What is your organization doing trying to use the latest version rather than LTSB?</p>
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IanYates82
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359808">In reply to Lucas:</a></em></blockquote><p>I think I recall hearing that if you have IPv6 disabled then this is what will happen in 1809 for Edge and Store apps.</p><p>You don't have to have configured IPv6, just leave it enabled. That's good practice anyway but I can see in a corporate environment that it may have been disabled by policy.</p><p><br></p><p>Give that a crack and see if it helps.</p>
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generalprotectionfault
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359965">In reply to IanYates82:</a></em></blockquote><p>Yep. Not having ipv6 enabled breaks every UWP app in 1809. This was another thing flagged by insiders awhile back that somehow made it into release. (Or "former" release)</p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p>Top developers simply don't do software maintenance.</p><p>And MSFT lacks capable management for Windows. Gotta wonder what MSFT's enterprise customers are concluding from this. How long before they demand long-term versions which go through at least 6 months prerelease testing and are then supported for at least 2 years. If MSFT wants to use & abuse consumers, fine & dandy, enterprises may demand a return to separation of home and work branches.</p><p>As for semantics, what if this is the new normal for MSFT? What if it's less a fiasco and more SNAFU? That Nadella hasn't debased himself by issuing any statement himself shows <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">either </span>he's a coward and is hiding behind underlings, or he just doesn't give a rat's backside about Windows so nothing to see or comment on here.</p>
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Jim Lewis
Log in to Reply<p>Paul continues on in "man bites dog" reporting mode …….</p><p><br></p><p>If Microsoft pushes out updates rapidly, it's "nobody needs updates this frequently…." If Microsoft actually pauses an update, it's "they can't deliver…." and there's not going to be enough time before the next update.</p><p><br></p><p>I guess the Cassandra mode attracts site users and helps pay the rent. Just as Paul says about companies, the bottom line is Paul is in business to make money. He's not a charity as he frequently points out about Microsoft, Google, and Apple.</p>
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Chris
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#359938">In reply to Jim_Lewis:</a></em></blockquote><p>Paul's right on both counts though. MS shouldn't be pushing updates out that fast, as they can't deliver on the tight schedules they set for themselves. The 1809 debacle is proof of this. Out of all the updates for Windows 10 that have been released so far, where other people have had problems, this is the first one where I've encountered issues (and not the data loss bug(s) either). MS either needs to slow down and release less updates, or put some internal staff on as QA/Testers, and find bugs like these. They can't keep going on the way they are going. Something has to change.</p>
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longhorn
Log in to Reply<p>One question I would like Paul to ask Microsoft. Why are two releases per year important?</p><p><br></p><p>I don't think anyone outside Microsoft knows the answer to this question. It seems silly to update a productivity platform twice a year. Not only silly, but irresponsible wasting users time, bandwidth and patience.</p><p><br></p><p>MS was able to deliver Internet Explorer 8 to 11 on Windows 7 (SP1). Edge updates shouldn't require OS upgrades, that's not a "valid" excuse for the crazy upgrade schedule.</p><p><br></p>
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hrlngrv
Premium MemberLog in to Reply<p><a href="https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/190383/fiasco#359940" target="_blank" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><em>In reply to longhorn:</em></a></p><p>From time to time people mention the need for MSFT to develop a direct competitor to Chrome OS. Maybe Edge is so baked into Windows 10 that MSFT's already done so. Just not quite the same as Chrome OS.</p>
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FrostyWinnipeg
Log in to Reply<p>Knowing MS's history I think they will let 1809 disappear into the same dead zone as the Kin and 19H1 will be pushed up.</p>
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generalprotectionfault
Log in to Reply<p>Thanks for continuing to beat this drum, Paul. Something's gotta give. What they're doing isn't working.</p>
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epguy40
Log in to Reply<p>then again, Paul should probably read this blog from the Askwoody.com site:</p><p>www.askwoody.com/2018/win10-version-1809-the-october-2018-update-didnt-arrive-in-october-but-thats-likely-been-the-plan-for-several-weeks/</p><p><br></p><p>I could care less as to when Microsoft will actually re-offer or re-release the 1809 version to the masses</p>
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Gavin Groom
Log in to Reply<p><span style="color: rgb(95, 94, 94);">No downtime for Hustle-As-A-Service.</span></p>
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jean
Log in to Reply<p>I was about to ask you what makes you think that you need to know or deserve to know – but that is besides the point-</p><p>if you really think about it then you'd understand that the way to fix the "data loss" issue is to fix the PREVIOUS VERSION(S) out there and not the next version…. hence the update to 1803 we've just got…</p><p>now it's a matter of rolling that out and possibly targeting the upgrade to patched versions only….</p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
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sevenacids
Log in to Reply<p>Despite all the fiasco, I don't think people should make 1809 worse than it actually is. For example, I did a clean install on two PCs so far, one of them I use for development work, and I experienced no serious issues so far. There are some weird glitches, like display brightness being reset to 50% after a reboot from time to time, or the Action Center occasionally appearing on the left side of screen for the glimpse of a second before it jumps to its usual location on the right… but there have been some weird things like that in the past releases as well. Which clearly shows quality problems are sneaking in and that should be taken seriously. But, really, it's not like the world will blow up when you actually install and use it right now with the latest patches. Especially if you prefer clean installations. I never trusted the upgrade process of Windows, and this whole story just tells me I never will. It's a shame that this is pushed on "helpless" (meaning: no IT professionals) users of the Home SKU. </p><p><br></p><p>It's just like Paul described it: The way Microsoft handles this is not right, it's pretty unprofessional.</p>
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yaddamaster
Log in to Reply<p>I had a conversation this past week with a senior VP within MS and there are plenty of people within the organization who are incensed at the state of QA. Satya let himself be sold a bill of goods that could never deliver and now is left holding an empty bag trying to figure out what to do next. The mood in the room was sobering.</p><p><br></p><p>They quite literally don't know what to do.</p>
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skane2600
Log in to Reply<blockquote><em><a href="#360580">In reply to yaddamaster:</a></em></blockquote><p>To me the solution is obvious: The old approach produced a higher quality product and the new approach did not, so you go back to the old way. Forget their pride and try to hire back key members of the QA team with a substantial raise. </p><p><br></p><p>If the potato you're eating is burning your mouth, you spit it out regardless of who is watching. (not sure who to attribute that to, but it's not original).</p>
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pecosbob04
Log in to Reply<blockquote><a href="#360673"><em>In reply to skane2600:</em></a><em> Shakespeare "Omelete" Act 13, scene 47</em></blockquote><p><br></p>
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John Muir
Log in to Reply<blockquote><a href="#360580">In reply to yaddamaster:</a></blockquote><p>I guess they saw the opensource devops model and thought somehow it could be made to work with closed source. No doubt win10 is sure in a bad place, and unless they alter things significantly, in a years time it will be even worse.</p><p><br></p><p>they need to start by asking what do people want, rather than force fed a useless full reinstall when MS deem it necessary. </p><p><br></p><p>they need to rip out the current update structure as its a disaster designed by 4yo's, 5 services at least – updateudate orchbitsdeliv optsome other. you can never tell where its at, what its downloading, how long it will take, how much bandwidth it needs. all i get to see is it pegs my internet at 100% bandwidth while im doing something ?? and stays there as it deems itself a far greater priority than the user using the system.</p><p><br></p><p>somehow they forgot people use this, and decided windows OS was just for MS to advertise and sell new products.</p><p><br></p><p>thats the first thing that has to change, their focus. has to be back to the users particularly enterprise, who are quite happy with 10 year cycles and tbh most users now – 5 years. I mean really what does win10 do that 8.1 didnt ? apart from drive you nuts with incessant updates.</p><p><br></p><p>for me even though the engineering is terrible, forced updates is worse via a flawed system, the prime failure is that they think this is what people want or would put up with. abit like no one wants the desktop anymore – ? i mean, they had taken leave of their senses for the last 2 versions. someone has to return to the win7 days or normalcy.</p>
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NT6.1
Log in to Reply<p>Let me say it one more time: Windows as a Service failed. Microsoft can't keep up with this crazy schedule. Windows 10 is ruining the Windows legacy. We need an OS that gets out of our way so we can do what we gotta do. Scrap Windows 10. Release a revamped Windows 7 with Windows 8.1's performance improvements, new Task Manager and a new Aero Glass. That's it. We don't need a lot of updates that only bring useless stuff for us. Bring back the Windows Live. The Photo manager was great. Stop ruining our tools with that UWP crap.</p>
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robincapper
Log in to Reply<p>I'd have thought a good step in researching this would be to ask the high level Microsoft contacts (I'd expect you have) for comment? It then becomes a news story, not a timeline.</p>
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Jeffsters
Log in to Reply<p>Mike Galos? Thoughts? Observations? Experience? Suggestions? Commentary?</p>
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pecosbob04
Log in to Reply<blockquote><a href="#360855"><em>In reply to Jeffsters:</em></a><em> He can't be bothered now as he is in the midst of a deep dive analysis of the Apple supply chain channel something, something, gazpacho. But rest assured this topic is very high on his to undo list.</em></blockquote><p><br></p>
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2ilent8cho
Log in to Reply<p>I need a solid well designed desktop class OS for my daily stuff and Windows stopped being that after Windows 7 with the worst UI ever in Windows 8 followed by making things even worse in Windows 10 in other areas so i moved to MacOS. It is a shame because the actual engine of Windows 8 and 10 seem better than Windows 7 but the GUI coupled with these forced upgrades and constant changes is making Windows infuriating and when your most loyal advocates have had enough you know something is very wrong. </p><p><br></p><p>It's worth paying the premium for a Mac now just to avoid Windows 10 if your applications run on MacOS. </p>
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ndwilder
Log in to Reply<p>When Windows as a Service comes up, THIS is why I laugh. MS also continues to focus on features no one wants, and the ones they do, turn into vaporware due to over promising. ANY update of ANY software, should NEVER endanger user data. MS should be paying for data recovery, and high level tech support for those affected. </p>
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roastedwookie
Log in to Reply<p>The level of incompetence in MS's leadership and the level of stupidity in that company, is beyond measure. Their garbage as a service model is a complete wreck, their guinea pig insider program is a joke, a pathetic way to avoid paying dedicated testers. Apple may be having problems with lower than expected sales for the iphone, Google may be having issues with their Pixel devices, but what is happening at MS is beyond anything ever seen before. I will not touch anything MS related, besides the Xbox, ever, until that imbecile leadership is changed and their behavior towards quality and customers is also changed!</p>
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Winner
Log in to Reply<p>I see that now Microsoft is having activation issues all over the world.</p><p>This is better than a good movie, I'm having popcorn.</p>